Reasons why people die when the economy tanks - a list ?

[LaurieFairyCake]

I keep seeing this phrase 'have to balance length of lockdown with deaths due to recession'

So, how do people die because of recession ?

1. Suicide due to poor mental health because of poverty

And?

[GirlCalledJames]

Long-term poverty leads to earlier death always, though not just during a recession. Temporary hardship is different.

[KenDodd]

Herd immunity is bollocks though. I wish people would stop using it.

Herd immunity is achieved through vaccines, nothing else, where you vaccinate 95% of the population and the remaining 5% are also protected by the vaccine as there's nowhere for the virus to spread. What was advocated was nothing more than survival of the fittest. Most people get CV (2% of those DIE) and the smaller number left who didn't get it are protected by the immunity of those who survived the virus and the elimination of those who DIED. Certain politicians can then claim this as a great success! They've saved a small percentage of people from getting the virus because they let a large number of people DIE.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

I know exactly what GDP is thanks and used income as in salary as an easily understood theme but here is a more detailed definition:

What Is GDP?

Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is the total monetary or market value of all the finished goods and services produced within a country's borders in a specific time period. As a broad measure of overall domestic production, it functions as a comprehensive scorecard of the country’s economic health.

I have obviously simplified many things in this explanation but at a very basic level I think it works.

[Dyrne]

All these posters that posters denying that poverty leads to more deaths - I’m assuming your peer-reviewed papers will be appearing in Scientific journals any day now then? Because the main bulk of scientific evidence so far points to the complete opposite of what you’re all saying...

[GirlCalledJames]

You seem to be assuming that more people die in a recession. That doesn’t seem to have been the case in past recessions. The death rate goes down.
The things PP mention definitely reduce quality of life, hopefully temporarily.

[Verily1]

Cake- gdp isn’t income it’s a measurement of the flow of money. It’s like measuring how fast the water is flowing down a river my sticking a stick in one point.

It has no relation to our total wealth ie the volume of the whole river (much more than our debt!)

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

With regards to loss of life from coronavirus, the latest figures show that 92% of those who died were 60+, and over half were 80+ and many had underlying health conditions. From an economic point of view most of these deaths are older people who are economicaly inactive i.e. they are not working in a factory making widgets.

And yes I know it sounds really harsh and unemotional and that is no doubt why I would make a terrible economist because I can't see beyond the 32 NHS workers who have lost their lives.

[ChrissieKeller61]

Lack of supervision for children. I grew up on a council estate with three story high massionettes, one of our favourite games was to climb between the balconies, jumping about 9"'s but if we'd have lost our footing we'd have died. In the absence of anything else to do and no parents around as they were at work/disengaged that was our fun. Friend also spent 9 months in a comma and eventually died of a drug over dose after playing chicken and loosing. That simply doesn't happen where I live now.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

In simple terms we as a country every year are spending more than we make, our current national debt is about equal to our GDP ( our national income). As the economy contracts that will make our debt a multiple of GDP and it will become very difficult and more expensive to borrow money particularly as other countries will be in a similar position and it will be a scarce resource. Like other countries before us (e.g. Greece) any loans we can get will have conditions attached and a plan to reduce this debt. i.e. by reducing public spending and increasing tax revenues from a depleted workforce.

We are told that this crash could be worse than the 1930s. Back then benefits had to be reduced because of the increase in numbers claiming and the reduction in government income to pay them. So again in simple numbers, because I appreciate that many have never studied economics, if you can imagine that at the moment the total benefits paid was say £1,000,000 and it has to be shared between 100,000 people then imagine the impact of reducing that to £500,000 that has to be shared amongst 250,000 people. Instead of receiving £10 each, income is down to £2 each.

Only countries with strong economies can afford a welfare state. So when economists talk about the long term economic costs they are not being dismissive of the loss of lives now, but they know that the long term losses in a huge depression will be far greater.

[refraction]

If the NHS is overwhelmed, our public services take a devastating hit. You can forget surgery, social support for vulnerable individuals.


If the virus is not checked by whatever means necessary, public sector funding and public workers will be hugely affected.

[Namechange2306]

*happening

[Namechange2306]

Starvation...malnutrition.

It’s hapkenung already. People aren’t donating to food banks.

Suicides.

[refraction]

Agree with that Big Choc Frenzy.

Rock and a hard place.

[feelingverylazytoday]

theculture you don't need specific 'microwave' food to be cooked in a microwave. It is possible to cook 'healthier ingredients' in one.
Really there is such a deafitist negative attitude on mumsnet towards these issues, I find it difficult to understand why having lived virtually my whole life in poverty.

[BigChocFrenzy]

If COVID were allowed to run unchecked, the govt advisers estimated an extra ½ million deaths within a short time

That would totally crash the economy anyway,

• few people would send their kids to school and go out to work themselves if there was mass death

and little chance of hospital treatment because of 20 people needing the next bed

Too many essential jobs and also jobs that pay for public services cannot be done by WFH

The economy gets screwed either way

[Randomword6]

oddboots I have to say I disagree. The level of tax revenue and the level of public spending aren't correlated. Government policy over the last 10 - 12 years has been largely dictated by ideology - a reluctance to spend on a wide range of social services. Revenues recovered after 2008 but were not used to meet social needs, to the long term detriment of our economy and infrastructure. So lower tax revenues and lower life expectancy are only linked if the government of the time wants them to be.

[Namechangervaver]

Sorry, wrong thread!

[Namechangervaver]

He doesn't even say "herd immunity" though
5 mins 20:

[BreathlessCommotion]

And there is tonne sif research and evidence that links increases in prostitution and survival sex and poverty.

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/22/universal-credit-hardship-linked-to-prostitution

[BreathlessCommotion]

@Flaxmeadow I didn't say poor people couldn't cook. I said in hostels there aren't proper cooking facilities. Or if you can't afford much electricity you can't run the oven for long periods (or at all). And there are evidenced studies that the cheapest food (that won't risk going off) is the highly processed stuff.

And if you don't drive or can't afford a car how do you do a big shop at the supermarket? Maybe bus, but the buses where I am are very expensive and not very regular. And don't stop anywhere near a supermarket.

[theculture]

And also living and poor quality housing/hostels that don't have the facilities to cook or can't afford to run the cooker etc meaning that it's much harder to use the healthier ingredients than cheap processed microwave food

[Canyousewcushions]

@flaxmeadow
Some poor communities don't have a supermarket which is easy to access. People who are really struggling for cash are less likely to have access to a car, or spare money for a bus fare (although even on the bus they are limited to what they can carry). I know of areas which are desperate for a supermarket so that local residents have more affordable food.

Fresh fruit and veg is also not cheap, especially if you want a varied diet. And the cheapest forms of meat protein are usually the most highly processed stuff in the shop, because the lower quality meat can be used to make them.

It's not so much an assumption that cash strapped people can't cook, more a reality that higher quality food is less available if you are living with serious levels of deprivation.

[EmMac7]

Vallance mentioned it specifically in a briefing, as referenced in that Sky interview.

If you are any doubt this was their policy @Flaxmeadow I would recommend this excellent, detailed Reuter’s article on the evolution of the U.K. authorities response:

mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN21P1VF?

[Millicent10]

There has already been an increase in domestic violence, people stuck in a house all day with violent partners will continue even if the lockdown is lifted due to job losses, low income. Unfortunately more women and children are likely to die because of this.

[LilacTree1]

Oh hang on

Did Johnson say it on This Morning or something? Was all this prior to daily briefings?

It’s been a long month 🤦🏽‍♀️