Feeling forced to chose a circumcision...is it my husband,is the religion,is it really necessary?

[efy]

I have read some messages related to this tread by some of you and I understand when you guys call people like us....crazy etc.
I come from a non-circumcised family, my three brothers have never done or need it.
After I have changed my religion I wanted to follow the requirements of being from this religion. I like to believe that I have personally done some changes which were related to my self.
Now that I have an almost 12 months son, it looks that I have to fill up another requirement, which is circumcision, because I am from the religion that requires circumcision but the difference is....the change I need to do does not envolve me directly...is actually my little baby boy.
How do I feel about this?? Well I feel is unnecessary, I already feel guilty for planning to handle my little precious boy in someone's else hands to just harm him...yeah that is exactly how I feel...me and his father taking him with his little smile to a place that God knows what may happen.
And you know what, it was actually planned for tomorrow but I feel relief for now because we have discovered the person who was suppose to do it has had an unfortunate case where the little boy had to be taken to hospital for more operations in order to be 'fixed'.
My husband was circumcised when he was 5 and he believes in it, I don't believe and I think is more cultural than religious, I just do not understand why God will leave this for us humans to do it? Why did he leave that thing there if it need to be removed and why on such as small baby? Why??
My husband speaks about it as being just a simple procedure because he is a doctor but this is not the point, what about the baby? how is he going to feel?
I am relief for now but I am not convinced that this is in anyway necessary if at all...
I rather feel pushed to do it along with my baby.

[baggins101]

YNK: that is your choice for your child and I respect your decision. Sadly you do not respect mine. Do you also plan to stop a dentist removing healthy but crowded teeth before fitting a brace to your child for purely cosmetic, non medical reasons?

[baggins101]

There is no medical need to have straight teeth, NurseyWorsey. It is a cosmetic choice, nothing more. It is less medical even than circumcision.

[baggins101]

And a damn sight more painful too!

[NurseyWursey]

Actually no, it isn't just a cosmetic choice. To get braces on the NHS it has to be something that will impact on everyday life.

Even if it didn't, in regards to eating, would you like your child to have to go through life with bent teeth? They aren't supposed to have bent teeth. They'd be subject to ridicule, problems eating etc.

Non medical Removal of foreskin however doesn't do anything. It doesn't improve function. It doesn't fix what is wrong. It is purely for your selfish reasons.

The fact you compare braces to circumcision shows how silly you are. One repairs something that has gone wrong, one is removing part of genitals that you don't like.

[NurseyWursey]

And you have no idea of the pain, since you aren't able to gauge baby's pain.

[baggins101]

Your arguments are becoming more bizarre, NurseyWorsey.

1. Crooked teeth don't create any medical problem. The impact is purely social.
   
2. Since most people have crooked teeth to some degree or other I must presume that is the normal state. Perfectly lined up teeth is NOT normal.
   
3. Your argument that circumcision has no benefit whatsoever is not supported by facts. You could reasonably argue that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages but instead you play the usual foreskin fetish game of denial.
   
4. And yes, I think I can reasonably say that local anaesthetic kills pain in babies just as it does in afults... unless you have some EVIDENCE to the contrary, of course??

[NurseyWursey]

Baggins I'm seriously worried for you that you're comparing the cosmetic changing of wonky teeth to the removal of a baby's foreskin.


A child can say, no I don't want braces. You aren't giving a baby that privilege. There is no reason to remove a foreskin, there are many reasons to straightening teeth.

You are instead, chosing to remove a body part on the basis of.... Well of what exactly?

Tell me why you want to do it. What is the reason?

And the benefits? Please do tell me about these benefits. These benefits that can't be gained in other ways? These benefits that are akin to chopping off my toe to prevent from stubbing it?

[YNK]

You are right, Baggins, I have no respect for anyone who would have a child mutilated!

[confuddledDOTcom]

Did you really resurrect a thread just to fight on it?

My SS was done for genuine medical reasons, they left him until he was a little older in case he could live with it. It certainly did hurt him and seeing how bad it was for him his brother said "Give me my heart operations any day" from a child who has had over 30 operations in his life on his heart.

I'm not getting drawn in as others are obviously doing a good job.

[AlpacaYourThings]

Trust your instincts, OP. It's barbaric mutilation.

If God didn't want all men to have a foreskin, why did he create men with foreskins? If God exists, then I am sure he wouldn't have made a mistake like that.

[NurseyWursey]

I didn't realise this was so old. I'm sorry about your son confuddled

[baggins101]

"Baggins I'm seriously worried for you that you're comparing the cosmetic changing of wonky teeth to the removal of a baby's foreskin."

I am calling you out as a hypocrite and showing up the anti circumcision lie that claims children's bodies should ONLY be altered for medical necessity. In truth removing teeth is far more painful and has no medical benefit at all.


"A child can say, no I don't want braces. You aren't giving a baby that privilege."

Well, in fact I waited until my son was 5 before he was circumcised, but that aside you are deluding yourself if you think most kids CHOOSE to have teeth removed and braces fitted. They are persuaded to have them by their parents just as parents persuade them to eat their greens. We could leave it until they are adults and genuinely choose for themselves, of course. But early teenage years are best for braces.


"There is no reason to remove a foreskin, there are many reasons to straightening teeth."

Leaving aside the advantages of circumcision for a moment, you are now arguing that because we like the look of straight teeth it is OK to subject our children to a couple of years of pain to achieve them. Hypocritical?


"You are instead, chosing to remove a body part on the basis of.... Well of what exactly?"

On the basis of a careful consideration of the arguments for and against.


"Tell me why you want to do it. What is the reason?

And the benefits? Please do tell me about these benefits. These benefits that can't be gained in other ways?"

Cleanliness which cannot be gained through washing.
The knowledge that my son will never lie in hospital waiting to have his penis amputated.
The probability of at least reduced chance of catching a few nasty diseases.
The knowledge that condoms are good but condoms plus circumcision is better.


" These benefits that are akin to chopping off my toe to prevent from stubbing it?"

A new low for a foreskin fetish argument? ?

[baggins101]

YNK: You didn't answer my question: are you willing to "mutilate" your child by having healthy teeth removed to fit a brace and achieve the socially desirable effect of a nice smile?

[baggins101]

confuddledDOTcom: Sue the Doctor. Your child shouldn't have experienced any pain. My son didn't when he had it done at 5.

[confuddledDOTcom]

Nursey, wasn't aiming my comment at you - apart from the bit where I said others were doing a good job

It was my stepson a few years ago now, far enough that his brother can tease him about it! When my son was born he had to be checked out and they're still talking about it - I think they're being over cautious as he doesn't have the family issues - we'll see in a few years.

[YNK]

That would be entirely up to my child.
My son dithered about wearing a painful brace at age 11 and I admitted to him that I couldn't do it. (It was to correct an overbite).
He decided to go ahead.
I have had problems caused by my own overbite which has now, in my 50's led to me losing healthy molars (the other option was having my jaw broken and reset)
I have to take my hat off to him for perseverance. He has never regretted it.
I don't hold much store with cosmetic dentistry but it turned out there was more to it than just a pretty smile!

[Martorana]

OK, Baggins- if you insist on comparing circumcision to braces on teeth, how about we agree to leave it til the child is 13 and let them choose?

[MissRatty]

Sorry Baggins, but you are so defensive that it does sound like your circumcision has affected you quite badly, otherwise you would be able to contribute in a more effective and objective (and unoffensive) manner. I am being serious and not provocative here, but I do think you should reflect a bit more on how it has affected you and seek help if you feel you need it.

Circumcision does hurt infants, if it did not, I would be very concerned with regard to the infants ability to sense pain, which is a natural protective response, partucularly in an area filled with nerve endings.

FGM is carried out for cultural reasons - mainly based on the theory that it is more hygienic and therefore the person is cleaner in the eyes of religion, and we frown upon this. I do not see how male genital mutilation (with exception of valid medical reasons) is any different.

I have dated two men who were circumcised later in life and both did tell me that it affected sensitivity. This however is anecdote, not data (Baggins...note that anecdote does not equal data). One did have recurring infections down there after the procedure, so even as a consenting adult under medical supervision, it is not risk free.

The study referring to HIV has since been found to be exceptionally flawed and the findings overstated. This is a good article which links back to original studies and states the myths in a reader-friendly manner.

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201109/more-circumcision-myths-you-may-believe-hygiene-and-stds

If you want a good source of unbiased, peer reviewed scientific studies, the Cochrane Library is the place to look online, not at anecdotes and sweeping generalisations from defensive internet users ;-)

To the original poster, you are lucky to have the insight that you have and to be querying this altogether shows that you are concerned about the procedure, and rightly so. You need to have a frank discussion with your partner and healthcare provider on this, as it is a highly emotive subject.

I certainly would not even entertain the idea unless there was a medical reason, and have little sympathy for the religious argument as I think it is a magnificent way of pretending to have no control over the situation, when actually its just quite a lazy way to be in a situation under which you are in control. What if your son, like you, converts later in life? He'll still be scarred by your decision.

As I said before, we are pushing to make female genital mutilation an imprisonable offence in the UK, and I see male genital mutilation no differently.

I hope you consider the facts before deciding. I do not doubt that you are in a dfficult position.

[baggins101]

YNK: I could have guessed that you would have had a dire medical need for a brace. What a coincidence! Entirely irrelevant though since the vast majority of braces are fitted for cosmetic reasons and you, hypocritically, have no problem with that. Which is my point.

[baggins101]

Martorana: You mosunderstand me, Martotana. I do not compare the removal of heakthy teeth and the fitting of a brace with circumcision. ... circumcision is much quicker and far less painful.
I use braces to demonstrate the hypocrisy of your claim that doing something to a child's body without immediate medical need is wrong.
It turns out that this only applies to the foreskin.... removing teeth for cosmetic reasons is perfectly acceptable!

[AlpacaYourThings]

Brilliant post MissRatty

[baggins101]

MissRatty: Thank you for your "genuine" concern however it is the lies and hypocrisy of foreskin fetishists like yourself that make me defensive.
I am sure your scientific sources are far superior to mine. They would be, wouldn't they.... they support YOUR beliefs!
I do not claim that circumcision is a cure for all ills, simply that there are enough benefits to make it a valid choice for parents.

[baggins101]

YNK said: "You are right, Baggins, I have no respect for anyone who would have a child mutilated!"

Indeed, YNK. Ignorance and intolerance are frequent bedfellows.

[mawbroon]

My 8yo has been wearing braces for 18 months to expand his narrow palate. His high narrow palate was distorting his post nasal apertures, causing sleep apnoea. The palate was encroaching on the space needed for his Eustachian tubes so he was suffering congestion and hearing loss, as well as mouth breathing because his nostrils were also restricted by the high palate.

Braces have stopped all these problems. Now, I don't know about you baggins101, but I would not consider sleep apnoea, mouth breathing or ENT problems "cosmetic"

[PigletJohn]

one might think that cutting off parts of the human body because it's what you're used to, is not so much like straightening teeth, as like pulling them out.