More on Health Visitors

[Bisonex]

Any day now I will be a grandfather for the first time - my daughter-in-law was due yesterday but no signs of labour yet.

I have noticed a dew discussions on here about health visitors. Having attended child abuse case conferences in a professional capacity I would advise anyone strongly against admitting a HV to their homes. My eldest daughter, now a doctor in paediatrics, shares my view on this.

HVs are far more concerned with carrying out surveillance on mothers and babies than giving any practical help or advice. They keep detailed records not just about the child, but they make assessments of the mother and father - their perceived competence as parents etc, the cleanliness of the home and anything else that catches their interest. If you try to see these records, they will obstruct you every step of the way. My son and D-i-L are clear that they will not be admitting the HV, or allowing her to see the baby - only the GP will be allowed to perform any checks.

I have seen suggestions that admitting HVs is compulsory. That's absolute nonsense - it isn't. A refusal to admit a HV will be noted - obviously - but that's all. Without plenty of other evidence, denied access would not be anywhere near enough to warrant interest from social services, let alone give them any powers. We had three children of our own and no HV ever crossed the threshold, nor were they allowed any access to our children. Once they realised we weren't going to change our minds, they left us lone.

Basically, if you let them in, they will open a file on you and it will contain a whole lot of stuff you will never see, yet which could be used against you should they ever wish to do so.

[greenbeanie]

I do realise that you don't have to be unwell to be a patient, but I wouldn't refer to a whole family as my patients. On the whole, when in practice I refer to them as families rather than patients or clients.

Just as a matter of interest there have been a few times when I have made notes with regards to the home that I visited. Several years ago I visited a home where I documented that there were dog faeces on the living room foor next to where the baby was lying, that I was invited to sit on the sofa and had to remove the drug paraphenalia including syringes etc. before sitting down. These are the kind of things that I document when it is clear that the home environment is having a direct impact on the wellbeing of the child and family.

[reallytired]

Do you think that you should refuse postnatal visits from midwives as well. They have files on families and duty to refer to social services if they have concerns.

Or if you want to be paranoid, why don't you pay for all your health needs privately.

[EditedforClarity]

I agree Bisonex that you are a scaremongerer. By you own admittance you are baseing your opinions solely on experiences with HVs involved in child abuse cases as no health visitor ever crossed the threshold of your home. It would only be right that a HV involved in such cases took notes, just as the paediatricians and social workers would. Some mothers have bad experiences with HV that is true but many, many mothers need and are grateful for their help. It's unhelpful in the extreme to encourage new mothers to exclude what may be a source of good advice and support when you yourself have no personal experience of it.

[pooka]

Well I really liked all of the health visitors I've had contact with. But only had one post-natal visit with each of my 3 babies.

When I had dd though, I really struggled in the early weeks with constant feeding, lack of experience of babies and a sense of isolation.

My local clinic ran a brilliant post-natal group - 8 weeks of weekly meetings at the clinic. 10 of us, first time mothers. Got babies weighed, had a talk about a topic (i.e. visit from continence nurse to discuss pelvic floor, and what support was available if there were continence issues, or a chat about weaning, or sleep for example).

We've all kept in touch and 7 years later count each other as very good friends.

Yes, sometimes people complain of outdated advice. But you don't have to follow guidance - can go your own way with regard to weaning, breastfeeding, co-sleeping and so on.

Incidentally my Great Aunt was a HV in the 1960's. Previously a midwife and district nurse. She was amazing - and definitely saw her role as one of supporting mothers and families.

[pooka]

I mean - only one post-natal home visit. Rest of time saw them at clinic, or have rung up on occasion if had a minor concern to discuss.

[Bisonex]

greenbeanie

I accept that there are instances where you have to take notes. But here is an example I gave earlier:

"I recall the amount of data collected by a HV on a local solicitor who had been unexpectedly arrested on suspicion of viewing child porn, and the HV said she had not been to the family home since his arrest. She was open about the fact that she had previously thought the family was "perfect" in every respect, but that hadn't stopped her compiling copious notes on all manner of stuff, including that the child was being "breathed on" by a grandparent who "smelled of cigarette smoke". That is unwarranted surveillance - it is data capture on the off-chance that it will one day come in useful. It turned out that the solicitor had not been viewing child porn."

Would you have recorded hat the child was being "breathed on" by a grandparent who "smelled of cigarette smoke"? Would you not agree that is neither relevant nor helpful?

reallytired

I also saw notes prepared by midwives and they were, from what i saw, far less detailed and intrusive. Midwives were clearly there as medical staff (and they called the people they treated "patients" and not "clients").

EditedforClarity

No, I didn't have the "experience" of having a health visitor in my home - maybe if I had let one in she would have been awfully nice. However, I'm not talking about their "niceness" - I'm talking about what I have seen that the mothers had NOT seen - the records showing an intrusive level of surveillance.

Mothers here can read what my experiences are, and the experiences of other mothers, and they can decide for themselves 1. whether the need a health visitor (I would argue that most don't) and 2. whether they are prepared to sacrifice their privacy for what is, in most cases, a bit of advice they could just as easily have obtained from their mothers, their pharmacist, or a decent child care manual.

greenbeanie seems really nice and reassuring and everything she says may well be true. But when you have had a baby and the doorbell rings you don't know whether the HV standing before you is the benign and helpful greenbeanie, or some obnoxious, spying busybody.

[Bisonex]

reallytired

Why don't I pay for all my family's health needs? I don't need to. I don't live in the UK.

:-)

[breatheslowly]

OP - your experience of HV notes is from cases of suspected child abuse. Don't you think it would be negligent of HV not to make notes if they suspect abuse? Have you seen the files of "normal" families?

How do you know that they will obstruct you in obtaining a copy of your notes given that you have never used their service?

Your eldest daughter is only 26 (assuming she is your oldest child), so given the length of medical training and the rotational nature of first jobs in medicine she will have had fairly limited experience in paediatrics. Between the two of you, your experience hardly sets you up as an expert in the role of HV.

I have found HVs to be useful - they have more experience of everyday baby stuff than GPs. They are there for questions about a healthy baby as well as an ill baby. I am pleased that someone else has an interest in DD including in her welfare. New babies are a challenge for many mothers and having HV support is very important to many families.

[WanderingSheep]

" Read the whole thread and you will see that I am not the only person with this perception. There are some recent mothers on here who have confirmed what I have said."

I have read the thread! There are two posters, one said that they saw some of your point.

[WanderingSheep]

And PMSL at comparing HVs to MI5 and MI6 spies!

[pooka]

I completely agree with breatheslowly.

I think I would have been a wreck if I hadn't had the gentle support I got from the Health Visitor in the early weeks - something as simple as a post-natal group, some leaflets and just a sympathetic ear made a massive difference to me when I was feeling vulnerable. I was either going to naturally rise out of the fog, or sink down into depression. The Health Visitor I had at that time made a big difference to how I was feeling.

I also like the fact that I can call if I have a general question about a healthy baby - one that I would feel silly taking to a doctor.

I'm sure any notes on me (if any -I think they've got bigger fish to fry) would read like the entries in the childrens' red books - "Feeding well" or "mother expressed concern about cord stump smell" or "referred to opthalmologist" or "baby sleeping well".

None of which concerns me to be honest.

[MoonUnitAlpha]

So basically, in situations where some kind of abuse is suspected HVs have made copious notes on the family? Don't see a problem.

[mrshuxley]

What is the legal position on notes taken by HVs? Do they go on the child's GP records? Are they destroyed after a certain time? Are they computerised? These things must be covered by all the recent legislation, so the situation must be clear-cut.

[Bisonex]

breatheslowly

As I explained earlier, I have seen the notes of "normal families", i.e. families before anyone in that family was suspected of anything. What I am saying isn't new, and it shouldn't be news to anyone. Check this out:

headlines-today.co.uk/2010/06/17/health-visitors-or-health-police/

Firstly, one of my friends used to be my GP and he told me that his patients get to see all his notes on demand, but getting access to health visitors' notes is a lengthy and difficult process (on purpose). If you do a quick Internet search, you will see this is a common complaint.

My eldest daughter is nearly 27 and is an SHO on paediatrics and has passed several "specialist" exams in her specialism prior to her taking up a post as a paeds registrar. I don't claim to be an "expert" in the HV - one doesn't need to be an expert in something to be aware of the danger it poses. I'm not an expert in cocaine, but I know it's unwise to introduce it into my body, just as it is unwise to admit a HV into my home.

My wife and I managed perfectly well without a HV, just as new parents managed for generations before they ever existed, yet you seem to think you need one. Fine - but the price you pay for a bit of common sense advice might be your privacy. Your choice. I value my privacy too much.

[fifi25]

Ive had a really bad experience with a hv. The one i had with my 1st dauughter was lovely, i couldnt fault her and could talk to her about any concerns. The one i had with my 2nd daughter was a complete nightmare. She was very critical. She was visiting the baby and my other daughter 2 at the time refused to switch cbeebies off. She then dragged her to the naughty step and my daughter kicked her in the face. This was obviously because she was scared and has never done anything like this before or since. One night the youngest was screaming so much she came out in a rash all over her body. I was admitted to the childrens ward. She was admitted and given a lumber for meningitis which came back negative. At some point i believe the hospital rang the health visitor who said she had concerns. I was kept in for 3 days and my daughter was subjected to mri scans, numerous blood test and an ulta sound. The diagnosis gastric reflux, I was send home with the medcine and she was fine. Within 2 weeks she rolled of the bed, i caught her but she banged her arm on the edge of the pine bed, She had a greenstick fracture. A year to the day whilst at her grandmas she was jumping on the bed with my eldest who by her own admission bumped her off the bed by accident. She had broke the same arm. I felt sick taking her back to the hospital but obviously had to. They immediatly rang the health visitor who said she didnt want me released from hospital and i was kept in for 3 days and treat like a criminal. I was refered to social services who were great and was signed off immediately. When she started school we were discussing hv and 3 mothers had asked the same hv to leave her house and not come back. I since have had my 3rd daughter and refused this health visitor. I was given a different one who has now left and i am back on the horrible ones list. My youngest is now 2.5 and for someone who had grave concerns about the other daughter i havent clapped eyes on her. This may be as i seen her in one of the local bars with a teenagers hand up her skirt and made a point of letting her see me.

[pooka]

I agree. I think "you value your privacy too much".

[mrshuxley]

But as you say, GP records have to be made available on demand (in exchange for a small photocopying fee). So if HV records are different, that is weird. Escept that I know parents aren't supposed to know if their dc are on the at risk register? Don't know how that fits in with data protection etc?

[Bisonex]

MoonUnitAlpha

"So basically, in situations where some kind of abuse is suspected HVs have made copious notes on the family? Don't see a problem."

You are not reading what I am writing. Read it again because I can't be bothered to repeat myself.

WanderingSheep

There are people on here sharing real experiences which confirm some or all of what I am saying. That proves it's not just me who thinks this, which some people are implying.

[Bisonex]

fifi25

That is a horrific story. Thanks for sharing it with us. If I were you, I would make it clear you are not prepared to have anything further to do with health visitors. You don't need their "advice" or interference - and you are not obliged to accept them.

pooka

"I agree. I think "you value your privacy too much"."

That is probably what the parents of those poor children in South Ronaldsay thought in 1991, before their kids were taken from them on the basis of dubious information.

You can never over-value your privacy.

[birdbandit]

No, Bisonex, you are absolutely right.

The only way to stay sane in this crazy police state is to stay indoors, curtains closed and to keep all the doors locked.

Trust NO ONE. The very minimum is to keep your money stuffed in a mattress (the banks keep a record of your spending!?!) You can't speak to anyone at work, those HR people have files on all of us. Let a HV see your baby?? In your HOME??? that would be madness indeed.

And of course you will need to take a hammer to your hard drive after posting here, they are watching us you know.

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

at birdbandit

Having had the misfortune to click through the OP's linked 'source' I think we are only a few short posts from 9/11 Conspiracy, Duke of Edinburgh murdered Lady Di and Lizard Overlords.

NB: there are of course serious aspects to government surveillance of private individuals but I don't think the HV system is one of them.

[birdbandit]

I personally welcome our Lizard Overlords.

[NonnoMum]

OP, I LOVED my Hv visiting me during the crazy first few days of each of my three babies.

It helped me distinguish between night and day.

And if I was being covertly surveyed, well, that meant that I was stiil part of the human race and not just a seething mass of bleeding hormones.

And why should only the drug addicts get all the attention??

[breatheslowly]

I value my DD's welfare over this minute invasion of my privacy (actually our HV encourage us to go to them, so really not much of an intrusion at all).

Common sense is not necessarily enough when you have your first child and have no previous experience of babies. Previous generations have survived without HV (though I think that healthcare provision and outcomes are much better now). However society has change such that many women have no experience of babies until they have their first. They often live far away from their family, so they can't get advice from more experienced mothers.

All professions have a few poor practitioners. To suggest that we should all aviod HV as a small minority are unpleasant or intrusive is akin to suggesting that we should all avoid doctors as a small number sometimes make the wrong diagnosis.

Whilst I woudn't normally say this about "surveillance", I have nothing to hide and I love my DD enough to allow a well trained professional to take a glimpse in our house and see this for themself. If on the otherhand I had experienced an unusual breakdown following DD's birth for example puerpural psychosis, then I would rather that someone "spied" on me and ensured the safety of my DD until I was well enough to do so myself.

I have done a quick internet search and can't find any evidence that accessing HV notes is a widespread problem.