What if I really just don't have enough milk?

[Pesha]

Have asked about problems with ds2s weight gain a couple of times. He is now 9 weeks old and weighs 10lb 1 after being 8lb 13.5oz at birth so has dropped from just below 91st centile to just below 9th. In the last week he only gained 2.5oz.

He has had a cold though so am really hoping that is why it was so low, the week before it was 6.5oz which was a record for him, week before that it was 3.5oz.

I am feeding loads, for a long time on each breast before swapping him. He feeds at approx 12, 3.30, 5.30, 7.30 through the night then most of the morning from 9.30 - 11.30, long feed at lunch time, long feed before tea and again after tea till he falls asleep anytime between 8 and 10. I have become expert at feeding him in sling out and about or just carrying him around whilst feeding!

I am eating LOTS, haven't lost even 1lb since he was born ! Drinking 4/5 pints a day. And resting lots as its pretty much enforced by his feeding, theres only so much walking and feeding i can manage each day with bad back!

Not sure what else I can try.

As i said hopefully it was just his cold and will pick up again but hv has said he's dropped 4 lines and that is the max she would like to see and if he's not picked up next week we'll have to look at supplementing with formula. I did this with dd and ds1 as i felt I didnt have enough milk with them either but I didnt have mn then and didnt really know what I was doing! This time I just feel so strongly i want to do it all myself with NO formula at all but then wonder if perhaps I'm being selfish doing that and if he needs formula i should just give it to him. Feel so crap that I can't feed him well enough myself.

Could it be that he really does need formula?

But if he doesn't then what can I do?

And what can I tell HV if she tries to pressure me into it?

[tiktok]

If you go to kelly mom , Pesha, you will find many referenced articles showing your diet, your fluid intake and your activity levels do not affect the quality or quantity of your milk.

I don;t know why the HV and clinic say they do - I can only assume they do not understand or know much up to date stuff about breastfeeding.

Catch down growth is a well-known phenomenon, especially common in large at birth babies - it's the way the baby finds his own physiological level.

Any HV pressurising you to give formula or undermining your confidence in the way you describe is not doing her job properly...simple as that.

Your baby sounds healthy and thriving

[tiktok]

The type of chart is irrelevant, truly - the ones in current use in the UK are fine for babies of up to six months or so anyway; the problem is the way they are interpreted.

[Pannacotta]

Also wanted to say its great your DS is happy ans smiley.
DS2 is chunky (was 9lb at birth) and putting on weight well but pretty grumpy>
He is always hungry and yet faffs around when feeding, so big baby need not equal happy baby...

[moondog]

Pesha, you are donig great.
Just stick him on the boob when he's hungry.
If hevstill seems hungry, put him on again.
It's as simple as that.

Have faith in your body.
You made a baby and now you can nourish it.

XXX

[Chirpygirl]

Pesha, sounds like you are getting fab advice here, and I just want to add that when DD was born I was told the normal 'eat, rest or your milk will fail' gubbins.
I went right off food after she was born as I had an infection after a CS amongst other things, and was running round like a blue arsed fly most days and my milk was fine, DD also dropped a lot of birth weight but I would listen to HV while nodding sagely and then leave and forget what they had said. She was happy, smiley, alert, plenty of wet nappies and I was like you and luckily only got dirty ones eveyr 3 or 4 days.
AND I fed her until 13 months with no supply problems!

[charleymouse]

Hi Pesha not read the whole post so not sure if mentioned. I was told to feed for at least a half hour each breast to ensure hind milk had been reached but not for that long after - have you tried changing sides was not sure how long you meant by "long time"
ds cluster feeds during evening though and dh jokes we should have him surgically attached to my breast. 10 weeks is one of those hurdles to get though as well so don't despair.

[welshprincess]

pesha- havent read all the posts but just wanted to say ( as a hv- dont all jump me)if you want to bf-just keep doing what you are doing. ignore/ dont see your hv for the time being. weekly weighing wont do any good for anyone.babies do their own thing when bf.
if your hv hassles you ask her to compare your babes chart against the 'thrive lines'produced by the child growth foundation
i doubt she will know what they are.
however if your baby becomes unwell etc please see your gp ( get out clause for me as i have never met you or your babe)
good luck and keep going.
xxx wp
i lurk on the conception boards that why you dont know me.

[theUrbanDryad]

Pesha - stop going to see your HV. if you want to know how much he weighs, either go into a drop in clinic (if you have such them in your area) or do the old trick of weighing yourself, then weighing yourself holding the baby and subtracting one from the other! might not be as accurate as their digital scales, but will be a lot less stressful for you.

you sound like you're doing an awesome job. just to contrast, my ds was born at 6lbs8oz, and at 9 weeks weighed in at 11lb1oz, and i was told he was gaining weight too quickly!! just goes to show how stupid a lot of HV's are!

[tiktok]

I agree about the poor support and knowledge shown by this HV

Urban - got to disagree about weighing in that way, sorry. There is no point in weighing if it is not gonna be accurate, unless you are doing it purely for fun. And just about the least accurate way you could weigh a baby would be to do what you are suggesting....normal adult scales do not weigh in fine enough gradations and it would be quite possible, even with 'accurate' scales to be a whole pound out either way. Not a recipe for helping Pesha combat stress at weighing - what do you think?

[Ali5]

Hello Pesha
My ds fed loads from day 2. It wore me out and I had a lot of people (family) covertly suggesting I introduce a bottle. I was lucky and had a supportive midwife and hv however as time went on, they induced this panic in me about weight gain, because he didn't regain his birth weight until he was 4 weeks old. I eventually decided to introduce a formula feed mid morning, which admittedly gave me a bit of a break and a few hours where I could actually do things. Looking back, I probably did that too soon and it didn't really make any difference to his weight gain. I would take heed of all these wonderful posts and be proud of your decision to bf and stick with it for as long as you want. Good luck.

[theUrbanDryad]

Tiktok - just for fun. yes, that was the idea...

[Marlipan]

Hello Pesha.
I don't have much to add to these very supportive posts. I had to supplement DD1 and felt very strongly that I wanted to solely breastfeed DD2. I used Domperidone for a while after a week when she had gained nothing at all. It's hard to say how much effect it had, but it may have helped. I took advice from a breast-feeding counseller (lactation consultant), did some research online and took the print-outs to my friendly GP who'd never heard of it bur was happy to prescribe it. You can also buy it over the counter. Found the support of a breast-feeding counsellor very helpful, btw.
Like you I found my previous experience made me depressed and anxious about feeding DD2. In the end I just told myself that I'll put the extra effort into giving them a healthy balanced diet now, instead of beating myself up about whether I could or couldn't breastfeed 'properly'.

[Pesha]

Hi all, thank you for all your lovely supportive posts, I have managed to read them all just not got around to posting till now! It really does help to hear other people's experiences and to have so much support

Elkie - - I dont know if there are any bf workshops here or not. I did a search a few weeks ago and saw NHS had done a bfing something on national bf day or whatever it was, it was literally 1 min down the road and the write up said they had invited pg women and bf mums from the area well I gave birth in hospital and was even readmitted at 3 weeks with an infection so was there for 4 days bfing and noone said anything about it to me Have no idea whats become of it or what else there is but TBH once I've had my weekly lecture from the hvs all I want to do is get out of there so I haven't actually asked. Everyone I know in RL with babies are ffing.

Tiktok - It's shocking that all the hvs and gps and mws I've seen dont know that. I've had very little support or advice re bfing with any of my children, just bad advice it seems MN has made such a difference to my pregnancy, my birth and now my baby, its fantastic I have access to all this support and information but quite upsetting and worrying really that I'm not able to get it from the medical professionals.

Apparently my hvs do a weaning visit at 12 weeks, I am planning on BLW, wonder how that will go

Charleymouse - is that right about feeding for half hour but not much longer on each side? My hv told me no more rthan an hour on each side but obviously not much faith in her advice. I would say i generally feed for somewhere between the two but not quite sure exactly how long, just till he seems like hes finished or is getting grumpy and seems like he's not getting any more milk (which isnt very often, he normally just falls asleep).

WP - 'Thrive Lines', will remember that aswell as 'catch down growth' for next time I see my hv, if I sound like I know what I'm talking about hopefully she'll listen to me or at least leave me to it!

I probably should just say that in the past on other issues my HV has been great and really helpful, she gave me lots of great advice on potty training ds1 and on dealing with his very 'terrible twos'. Just seems bfing isn't her thing.

Urban - it kind of is a drop in centre, you go in weigh your baby and if they're not too busy the HV will come and talk to you but if I go at a busy time I should be able to get in and out without her noticing!

[Accebucce]

Hi,
My first post to Mumsnet, so forgive any lapses in protocol.

Just wondered if it was worth having a blood test to get your thyroid levels checked. If they're low, it can affect breast milk supply. (Mine was massively overactive which also made life difficult, but nothing to the problems that being over-medicated and underactive did).

If it is underactive you will not have much of an appetite, put on weight easily, and generally feel tired (difficult to assess since one is tired ANYWAY). It's dead easy to treat - you just take thyroxin. Worth a try?

And I can empathise with the HV pressure. I caved in immediately when ordered by my community midwife to top up DS with formula, because so worried about my teenytiny son (first baby - didn't know any better).

Your baby sounds much happier than mine was at that stage, so maybe he's just not a big eater - my DS cried all the time before introducing top ups. But don't feel guilty if you DO need to top him up. The advocates of breastfeeding can also put alot of pressure on - I cried for weeks about having to give DS formula as well as boob milk. Looking back, I'm quite angry at how guilty I have been made to feel

Good luck - and remember that the important thing is that you love your baby.

[tiktok]

Acce - but she doesn't need to have her thyroid checked as the baby's weight is fine! Getting tests just confirms this notion there is something wrong

[Accebucce]

Probably true Tiktok - especially as baby seems happy... just that if pressure being put on to supplement it's worth checking out if anything can be done. I know that the so called 'support' b-feeding group I went to were more sanctamonious than supportive. Told me that it was impossible for me not to be producing enough milk if I was doing everything right, and lo and behold, weeks of grief later it turned out that there was a reason, but no one had acknowledged that this could be the case. I think it's quite unusual but I hate to think of this happening to someone else unneccessarily.

I don't mean to put anyone off going to b-feeding workshops tho'. It was well worth going to check that latch was as good as I thought it was and for other tips, and to meet other mums.

I breastfed and topped up for first couple of months which worked fine btw. In retrospect, wish I could have done it without the added guilt.

[Pesha]

Ok I know you've all told me lovely things and given me lots of advice but ds2 is now 15 weeks and im worrying again

I had been strong and stopped worrying, satisfied by advice here that he was fine. But he is now 11lb2 so just below 2nd line and has an appt with paed on 6th sept (referred after hvs nagged me to see gp). This week he has only gained 40g.

If I'm honest I do actually feel like I dont have enough milk, thats what my instincts are telling me but I dont want it to be true, I really dont want to give him formula but am now starting to think perhaps I'm just being selfishly stubborn. My previous 2 dc had top up bottles and it did improve their weight gain although perhaps that is due to the top ups decreasing my supply as i started so early (in my pre mn days!).

He is happy and alert and awake nearly all day, full of smiles, rolling over. But so skinny!

Outwardly Im telling my hv i think he's fine, im happy with supply and I will not be giving him formula but inside I'm wobbling again. Is it really really ok for him to have dropped so much? Really?!

[Pesha]

Anyone?

[hunkermunker]

If you didn't know how much he weighed, would you be worried about him? Is he listless? Does he have dull eyes? Is he weeing? Pooing?

[Pesha]

Good question! In himself he seems fine - doesnt really sleep all day except quick snooze while feeding, he's always smiling and happy and 'talks' and is rolling over and interested in everything. He wees quite abit but not loads, it varies. He poos about once a week ish but then ds1 went even less often.

He started me worrying when he didnt poo for a week after his meconium poo and his wee was orange (urates i think? Something like that anyway!). I think I would be a little bit worried by his size and amount of feeding although it is calming down abit now. But not as worried, no.

[hunkermunker]

It sounds like he's really active and burning off a lot more calories than a baby who lies on a playmat.

If he was unwell or not getting enough from your milk, I would imagine the last thing he'd feel like doing would be rolling around.

It might be that he's just not intended to be big - what build are you and your partner? Your other children don't sound as if they have natural "bruiser" tendencies either! The thing is, some babies are on the 2nd centile, some are on the 98th - it's just that more "fretting" is done over the ones on the 2nd, because in this society, somehow, it's a lot more acceptable to have a chubby baby than a more slender one.

[mistlethrush]

Is there anywhere you can weigh him before and after a feed accurately? Its so difficult to know how much milk they are actually getting, and this would at least tell you what quantity there was (just make sure that same clothes, same nappy etc!)

I can't help with low weight or top-ups - ds was 10lbs5oz at birth, dropped to 9lbs 4oz at first weigh, but soon started putting it back on. however, never got back up to the 95th line that he was on at birth, even though he is also quite tall. He had no formula until he was about 10months when we introduced it for nursery days when I had not managed to express sufficient for his milk feeds.

I kept him to one side per feed, based on advice from a friend who had swapped sides with dd1 who needed lots of regular feeds, but stuck to one side with dd2 who put on huge amounts of weight and went longer between feeds, probably as she was getting more hind milk.

Have you ever tried expressing? I had to work at this for quite some time until I got the technique right, then became a lot easier. I found it really interesting how different the milk looked on different days - sometimes clearly a lot more hind milk than fore - this might help you to find out whether you really do have enough milk (and let ds drink from bottle - can find out how much he is happy to drink at one feed).

Try to get the help you need to carry on - although don't feel bad if you do decide that you need the occasional top-up - you're doing really well, and the longer you can continue, the better for both of you.

[EffiePerine]

Good idea to go and see the paed and see what they say. They will hoopefully have a better idea than your HV and GP and may just say that your LO is fine . I haven't any experience with weight dropping (the opposite - DS was born on the 25th percentile and jumped to the 91st after 10 days, which is where he has stayed, another eg of babies finding their own growth pattern I suppose).

Get as much info as you can, ring one of the bf lines for advice once you've seen the paed and make the best decision for you.

[Pesha]

I did think that when i was the clinic and she was congratulating a mother whos baby is at the top of the charts and telling her how well she's doing and its nothing to worry about but have been harassing me for weeks about ds dropping towards the bottom.

DD is very tiny build as is alot of my family, ds1 is a bit of a chunk! Not fat but very solid build like me and dp.

The pics on my profile show huw much his size changed from birth to 7 weeks. But then he's grinning like a loon so obviously not suffering for it!

I know you're right about how happy and alert he is but have alot of nagging self doubts questioning it. I really should have just stopped taking him to be weighed I think.

[mistlethrush]

Sounds as though he is doing fine, and, as you say, if you hadn't been getting him weighed, you wouldn't have seen his weight as a problem...

Hopefully Paed visit will help to allay fears, or help if there are any problems.