What if I really just don't have enough milk?

[Pesha]

Have asked about problems with ds2s weight gain a couple of times. He is now 9 weeks old and weighs 10lb 1 after being 8lb 13.5oz at birth so has dropped from just below 91st centile to just below 9th. In the last week he only gained 2.5oz.

He has had a cold though so am really hoping that is why it was so low, the week before it was 6.5oz which was a record for him, week before that it was 3.5oz.

I am feeding loads, for a long time on each breast before swapping him. He feeds at approx 12, 3.30, 5.30, 7.30 through the night then most of the morning from 9.30 - 11.30, long feed at lunch time, long feed before tea and again after tea till he falls asleep anytime between 8 and 10. I have become expert at feeding him in sling out and about or just carrying him around whilst feeding!

I am eating LOTS, haven't lost even 1lb since he was born ! Drinking 4/5 pints a day. And resting lots as its pretty much enforced by his feeding, theres only so much walking and feeding i can manage each day with bad back!

Not sure what else I can try.

As i said hopefully it was just his cold and will pick up again but hv has said he's dropped 4 lines and that is the max she would like to see and if he's not picked up next week we'll have to look at supplementing with formula. I did this with dd and ds1 as i felt I didnt have enough milk with them either but I didnt have mn then and didnt really know what I was doing! This time I just feel so strongly i want to do it all myself with NO formula at all but then wonder if perhaps I'm being selfish doing that and if he needs formula i should just give it to him. Feel so crap that I can't feed him well enough myself.

Could it be that he really does need formula?

But if he doesn't then what can I do?

And what can I tell HV if she tries to pressure me into it?

[Pesha]

Thank you all for your advice and support, it really is helping me

I am hoping that the paed will be able to reassure me once and for all and get the hvs off my back for good.

I know the charts arent great at the moment but I still like to have them! And my worry over them has been on and off but like I said if they do continue to worry me I will just stop, I've learnt my lesson this time!
And as for them, taking my red books they'll have to fight me for them!!! DD is nearly 7 and they've never asked for hers so perhaps its different in different areas.

Talking about weaning has reminded me - when I was having home visits it was an hv from a different surgery. On her final visit at 6 weeks she didnt have any edingburgh tests on her so told me to make sure they did it at the surgery. I asked and was told they did at 12 weeks with a weaning talk in my own home. Have had neither and it hasnt been mentioned since. Had PND and AND with both pgs previously and was referred to psych unit during this pg by consultant just in case (although I felt it was unnecessary) and he wanted me to have regular checks after birth. But hvs have failed to make even standard checks yet are hassling me about his weight Its making me cross now! Think I should just give up on them.

[mistlethrush]

I only suggested expressing if its easy and because you can see what quantity goes down that way - but as you find that its easy sometimes, it suggests that there is no problem anyway. I wasn't suggesting it as a full-time occupation! Much better and easier and no faffing without bottles etc to sterilise.

Hope visit to Paed goes well, and hope that you manage to keep the HVs at bay in the meantime!

[Olihan]

Don't bother explaining BLW to them. Just smile and say 'yes, I will be weaning him at 6mo, I know what I'm doing, this is my 3rd child, I don't need any help, thank you.'

And the thing about keeping clothes, bits of tat, etc. They're all nice things to keep and look at and remember the happy memories from. It doesn't seem like you're storing many happy memories of his weight gain at this stage of his life, all it's doing is driving you to distraction and the worrying is probably taking over most of your waking moments. Keep all the other bits and pieces, I have all those and I love going through them but leave the weighings. There's no point in keeping a record of something if it's going to make you completely miserable.


Also, the HV's threat about coming to visit you is pointless. There is no requirement for you to see them, if you don't want to, you don't have to. They can try to come to your house but you can easily 'forget' the appointment.
(You do know they take your red book away when they're 5, don't you? )

[prettybird]

my ds was born on the 91st centile and then dropped steadily (apart from initial drop, never actually dropping weight from one week to the next) until he was below the charts. He took 7 weeks to regain his nith wegiht. He then chuntered along just underneath the charts, and then gradually moved up to follow the 2nd centile and then eventually (don't even know when - I stopped getting him weighed) moved up to about the 50th centile, which is where I think he now is (to be honest - I don't really have a clue - he's nearly 7, a slim, happy, healthy boy - who cares?)

I did get fantastic support from the breast feeding counsellors from the maternity hopsital 9and made sure to avoid all HVs! ). They did encourage me to wake him to feed him (he's had jaundice and was a bit sleepy) but that was really just in the early weeks. After that initial sleepy phase, he was happy, healthy and alert at all times. Even giving him EBM (loads of it!)every second feed made no difference to the rate of his weight gain - so it was obvious that it wasn't a question of lack of supply. he was a claiss case of what Titok talked about - "catchdown growth".

The counsellors did refer him to the consultant paediatrican, just to cover themsleves. He took one look at this manfistely happy, healthy child and asked how my dad was (who had been a colleague). He did tell me to "stop the faff" of expressing and just to contineu feeding ds for as long as I wanted to (as it happened, the expressing was useful, as I was going back to work when he was 4 months old).

Don't wrry abut seeing the paediatrican. If he/she is any good, (s)he'll look at the child and not the growth charts.

[Pesha]

Actually I did have to explain to her how the conversion charts work this week as she was trying to tell me he had only gained 4g rather than 40! Apparently its because it was written as 5.06 when it should be 5.060 so she knows its 60 'why did I get into this' she said, my thoughts exactly!

[Pesha]

You're right I know its just that I like a record of things, i love having photos of them and keep loads of bits of tat as reminders, have kept pretty much everything they've ever worn and I just really like to have a record of it. I know it doesnt really matter but i like to know!

I was fully reassured before so intended just to sneak in and out and get him weighed just for my own records and not worry about it. It worked one week but the next week they were ready and made a point of cornering me to talk about it, they wrote in their book that I was coming back the following week and if I hadnt they would have come for a home visit! And so their nagging has chipped away at my confidence and here I am again.

I will go to see the paed just in case and then hopefully it will reassure them, and me, for good but if they or i continue to worry about it after that then I will just stop. I dont need to know that much!

My next hurdle no doubt will be explaining BLW to them

[Olihan]

@ damp sock puppets, Hunker!

[hunkermunker]

Fab post, Olihan.

Pesha, if it helps, DS1 used to lose ounces here and there from one week to the next. My HV would point at the chart with her pen, tilt her head to one side and say, mournfully, "He was born on 75th centile and now he's dropped to here" and point somewhere between 9th and 25th.

DS1, meanwhile, would be gurgling up at her, big, shiny eyes, massive gummy grin - he actually looked chubby, because he had a big head(!) - she would barely glance at him, if at all, then return to the chart.

He did sometimes gain 6oz, 8oz, even near on a whole pound in a week in the first few weeks, but once he started the ounce or three losses, I just stopped taking him to be weighed. I knew he was fine, I didn't need a damp sock puppet not even looking at him and telling me perhaps he needed pureed carrots to help him gain weight

[Olihan]

Pesha, can I ask a question? WHY do you keep taking him to be weighed when all it's doing is stressing you to the point at which you're contemplating doing something you don't want? Earlier in the thread you said you had to know and now you're admitting to Hunker that you wouldn't be worrying if it wasn't for the weigh ins. It seems to me that you are unnecessarily worrying yourself, being referred to GPs and paeds when you don't need to be, and for what? So you know a completely pointless number?

My ds2 was 10lbs 2oz when he was born. I ff ds1 and dd because they were took over 3 weeks to regain their birthweight and didn't even do that until after I'd introduced top ups. I had my HV giving me all the doom and gloom which is why I topped up. With Ds2 I was determined he would be exclusively bf and I had the support of MN by then. Ds2 took nearly 7 weeks to regain his birthweight and hearing about 'catchdown growth' from tiktok meant I could ignore my HV. He's now dropped from the 99th centile to the 25th. He's 7mo and easily fits into 3-6mo clothes, looks quite slim compred to ds1 and dd at the same age but he's sitting up, crawling, pulling himself up to standing, is always happy, smily and chatty. He's BLW now and loves his food. I have no idea what his weight is because I know by looking at him that he is absolutely fine.

The numbers and lines in the red book don't matter if your baby is fine in all the other areas. Hunker has explained what an under nourished baby would look like and it's clearly not your baby .

For your own sake, why don't you just stay away from the clinic for a month? Look at your baby instead and see how much less you worry about your milk supply?

(FWIW, my dh was the tiniest, skinniest baby you could imagine - he once put on 0.5oz in a month as a young baby but he's an 18st rugby prop forward now!)

[Pesha]

YeahI do, still have a few nagging doubts but thats normal for motherhood I think!

Its fuuny yesterday I was telling hv I wasnt at all worried because hes so active and obviously happy and is prob just burning it all off but didnt really believe till I hear it from someone else!! Especially as I know on mn people will tell me the truth and not just what i want to hear!

[Pesha]

X posts! Typing one handed as hes feeding at mo so abit slow!

I will only be pumping to freeze it for other people to give him if needs be. Its weird sometimes i find it abit disheartening when i can only manage an oz or 2 but other times I'm reassured by how much and how quickly it comes out at first! So I try not to take much notice of it all.

[hunkermunker]

Do you feel a bit better, Pesha? Bit more reassured?

[hunkermunker]

Oh, yes, all in favour of expressing for nights out

[Pesha]

I do feed him on each side for a very long time, specially as he often dozes while he's feeding so pauses in between sucking after the initial fast flow of milk.

I was expressing but can only really manage it in the evenings when he's been asleep awhile, in the day he feeds too often for my milk to build up enough between feeds. But he stopped sleeping in the evenings for a while so I stopped and he has only just started again. I will start pumping again though to build up a supply in the freezer so i can have a night out sometime!

[hunkermunker]

See, how bonkers is that HV? 98th centile is the same as 2nd as far as "deviation from average" goes.

Mistlethrush, I don't think expressing would be helpful - a pump's not as good at getting milk out as a baby and how it looks isn't really an indicator of how "rich" your milk is. It just gives another raft of things to worry about and I don't think Pesha needs that!

[mistlethrush]

Sounds as though he is doing fine, and, as you say, if you hadn't been getting him weighed, you wouldn't have seen his weight as a problem...

Hopefully Paed visit will help to allay fears, or help if there are any problems.

[Pesha]

I did think that when i was the clinic and she was congratulating a mother whos baby is at the top of the charts and telling her how well she's doing and its nothing to worry about but have been harassing me for weeks about ds dropping towards the bottom.

DD is very tiny build as is alot of my family, ds1 is a bit of a chunk! Not fat but very solid build like me and dp.

The pics on my profile show huw much his size changed from birth to 7 weeks. But then he's grinning like a loon so obviously not suffering for it!

I know you're right about how happy and alert he is but have alot of nagging self doubts questioning it. I really should have just stopped taking him to be weighed I think.

[EffiePerine]

Good idea to go and see the paed and see what they say. They will hoopefully have a better idea than your HV and GP and may just say that your LO is fine . I haven't any experience with weight dropping (the opposite - DS was born on the 25th percentile and jumped to the 91st after 10 days, which is where he has stayed, another eg of babies finding their own growth pattern I suppose).

Get as much info as you can, ring one of the bf lines for advice once you've seen the paed and make the best decision for you.

[mistlethrush]

Is there anywhere you can weigh him before and after a feed accurately? Its so difficult to know how much milk they are actually getting, and this would at least tell you what quantity there was (just make sure that same clothes, same nappy etc!)

I can't help with low weight or top-ups - ds was 10lbs5oz at birth, dropped to 9lbs 4oz at first weigh, but soon started putting it back on. however, never got back up to the 95th line that he was on at birth, even though he is also quite tall. He had no formula until he was about 10months when we introduced it for nursery days when I had not managed to express sufficient for his milk feeds.

I kept him to one side per feed, based on advice from a friend who had swapped sides with dd1 who needed lots of regular feeds, but stuck to one side with dd2 who put on huge amounts of weight and went longer between feeds, probably as she was getting more hind milk.

Have you ever tried expressing? I had to work at this for quite some time until I got the technique right, then became a lot easier. I found it really interesting how different the milk looked on different days - sometimes clearly a lot more hind milk than fore - this might help you to find out whether you really do have enough milk (and let ds drink from bottle - can find out how much he is happy to drink at one feed).

Try to get the help you need to carry on - although don't feel bad if you do decide that you need the occasional top-up - you're doing really well, and the longer you can continue, the better for both of you.

[hunkermunker]

It sounds like he's really active and burning off a lot more calories than a baby who lies on a playmat.

If he was unwell or not getting enough from your milk, I would imagine the last thing he'd feel like doing would be rolling around.

It might be that he's just not intended to be big - what build are you and your partner? Your other children don't sound as if they have natural "bruiser" tendencies either! The thing is, some babies are on the 2nd centile, some are on the 98th - it's just that more "fretting" is done over the ones on the 2nd, because in this society, somehow, it's a lot more acceptable to have a chubby baby than a more slender one.

[Pesha]

Good question! In himself he seems fine - doesnt really sleep all day except quick snooze while feeding, he's always smiling and happy and 'talks' and is rolling over and interested in everything. He wees quite abit but not loads, it varies. He poos about once a week ish but then ds1 went even less often.

He started me worrying when he didnt poo for a week after his meconium poo and his wee was orange (urates i think? Something like that anyway!). I think I would be a little bit worried by his size and amount of feeding although it is calming down abit now. But not as worried, no.

[hunkermunker]

If you didn't know how much he weighed, would you be worried about him? Is he listless? Does he have dull eyes? Is he weeing? Pooing?

[Pesha]

Anyone?

[Pesha]

Ok I know you've all told me lovely things and given me lots of advice but ds2 is now 15 weeks and im worrying again

I had been strong and stopped worrying, satisfied by advice here that he was fine. But he is now 11lb2 so just below 2nd line and has an appt with paed on 6th sept (referred after hvs nagged me to see gp). This week he has only gained 40g.

If I'm honest I do actually feel like I dont have enough milk, thats what my instincts are telling me but I dont want it to be true, I really dont want to give him formula but am now starting to think perhaps I'm just being selfishly stubborn. My previous 2 dc had top up bottles and it did improve their weight gain although perhaps that is due to the top ups decreasing my supply as i started so early (in my pre mn days!).

He is happy and alert and awake nearly all day, full of smiles, rolling over. But so skinny!

Outwardly Im telling my hv i think he's fine, im happy with supply and I will not be giving him formula but inside I'm wobbling again. Is it really really ok for him to have dropped so much? Really?!

[Accebucce]

Probably true Tiktok - especially as baby seems happy... just that if pressure being put on to supplement it's worth checking out if anything can be done. I know that the so called 'support' b-feeding group I went to were more sanctamonious than supportive. Told me that it was impossible for me not to be producing enough milk if I was doing everything right, and lo and behold, weeks of grief later it turned out that there was a reason, but no one had acknowledged that this could be the case. I think it's quite unusual but I hate to think of this happening to someone else unneccessarily.

I don't mean to put anyone off going to b-feeding workshops tho'. It was well worth going to check that latch was as good as I thought it was and for other tips, and to meet other mums.

I breastfed and topped up for first couple of months which worked fine btw. In retrospect, wish I could have done it without the added guilt.