Does this sound OK for day 4?

[AntoinetteCosway]

Sorry to post again for reassurance-this is all new to me!

Am engorged as milk came in yesterday and DS finds it difficult to latch on to monster boobs and was getting frustrated and frantic really quickly and then spending ages trying to latch and not managing it. Last night out of desperation I gave him about 30ml of formula to calm him down and then he managed to latch on, so that led to today's 'plan' (only formulated after several more extremely frustrating feeds) which went as follows...

1. Managed to express about 6oz with a pump which took out the engorgement and some of the lumpiness. Took about an hour with a Medela swing.
   
2. Fed DS 30ml expressed milk and he then latched on but only on one side for about 15 mins before falling asleep. Couldn't interest him in the other side. Argh.
   
3. Expressed more from the side he hadn't fed from as didn't want that boob to end up engorged again. Got another 4oz (including a little bit from the boob he did feed from too) in about 45 mins.
   
4. Next feed-gave DS 10ml expressed milk and then convinced him into staying awake for 15 mins on one boob, switched to the other and managed about 6 mins before he fell asleep. Gave him another 10ml expressed milk and put him back on second breast until he fell asleep again, about another 10 mins.
   
5. Give or take some of the timings, repeat.
   

I'm happy that giving him little laps of expressed milk from a cup both wakes him up and keeps him calm enough to then deal with actually latching on but I'm worried that he doesn't stay awake long enough on the breasts and that he'll get reliant on the expressed milk and lose interest in actually feeding from me. Is that likely? Should I try giving him smaller amounts of expressed milk in the hopes that it has the same effect but he doesn't get so sleepy?

Yesterday I experimented with letting him just stay on one boob for as long as he wanted and he managed a max of about 25 mins, but then I think that partly led to the agony of engorgement I had overnight as they weren't both being drained at the same rate.

So what's better-let him drain one as much as poss at the expense of the other (or alternate feeds from one and expressing on the other which is very time consuming and noisy especially at night), or aim for as long as possible on both, which is hard to gauge in advance of course (and goes against my instincts to switch if he's actually feeding) but seems to be about 15 mins on both?

Sorry that's so long.

[mrscog]

Well done, I hope you have a more relaxing 24 hours. I agree with EVERYTHING culture says. Wise words. And I really wish that this ' The introduction of some formula doesn't have to be the end of breastfeeding' was more widely spread around as advice/support.

[CelticPromise]

I agree with the others, formula/bottles doesn't have to be the end of bf. Expressing at night is important for supply though, even if you don't get much the action of stimulating the breast is helpful.

There is a great article called the Babes Guide to Bottle Feeding on the Best for Babes website.

[AntoinetteCosway]

Thanks all-and I'll look at that article. Interesting that even if I don't get much out it's still useful to express at night-I'll definitely bear that in mind tonight if it doesn't seem to be going well.

[CelticPromise]

It's because your prolactin levels are highest during the night, between about 2-4am. I hope tonight goes well. Glad you got some good advice.

[springbabydays]

Wishing your poor nipples better soon OP!

We used the Philips avent natural bottles and teats btw, ds preferred them to the classic ones.

[sleepysleepy]

The funny mouth/ gum thing: in sure it will have been suggested, but its nothing to do with any restricted neck movement after a difficult delivery, is it? Cranial osteopathy was suggested to me at one point. I didn't make it that far though, I was not as stoic as you are managing to be.

Good luck whatever you end up doing. Make sure you're managing to enjoy the baby as well as feed it I lost three babies worth of early weeks to all this sort of angst and in some ways, I wish i has given myself a break and got on with just cuddling and enjoying them, rather than crying over the failing breastfeeding. But I guess if I'd been to work through my issues I may have been glad I had persisted...

[AntoinetteCosway]

Cranial osteopathy is next on my list of things to investigate!

Pumping exclusively hurts so much. My nipples are bruised to buggery

[CelticPromise]

Pumping shouldn't hurt, really. Have you got the right size funnel things for your nipples? Try turning the strength down and gentle compressions while you pump.

[CelticPromise]

Pumping shouldn't hurt, really. Have you got the right size funnel things for your nipples? Try turning the strength down and gentle compressions while you pump.

[CelticPromise]

Oops sorry.

[AntoinetteCosway]

Think the flanges are too small-have been in touch with the lady I hired it from and she's going to order some bigger ones for me.

[CelticPromise]

How are things?

[AntoinetteCosway]

I got a larger flange which really helped with the pain but the lady I'm hiring from only ordered one (!) so I've been waiting for the second one to arrive and in the meantime doing one breast at a time which is super time consuming.

It was taking me pumping for two out of every three hours to get enough milk for all his feeds so a few days ago I decided to just pump for 30 mins on each side every 4 hours to try and let my nipples heal. Obviously this doesn't mirror newborn feeding but I had to give them a chance to heal-they were excruciating. So that only produced enough milk for about half his feeds and we gave the other half in formula. And then last night I slept through and missed two times I should have expressed, woke up with breasts like rocks and have decided that as I've gone through nearly 12 hours without expressing, now's the time to throw in the towel. I knew I wasn't going to last the week anyway so it was only a matter of time.

Am sad, but also looking forward to actually being able to feed him, as he won't take a bottle from me at the mo, and also to being able to comfort him without him going mad and rooting and getting more upset.

[CelticPromise]

I'm sorry you've had such a rough ride. I hope you feel at peace with your decision and heal quickly. It will be lovely to feed your son again wishing you all the best.

[AntoinetteCosway]

Thank you-I really appreciate that

[StaggeringOn]

Are you taking some painkillers to help you? I'm sure there are some that are compatible with BF?

[LightTripper]

Not much to add, except a hug and to agree with an earlier poster that IF you want to then adding in a bit of formula need not be an all or nothing thing.

I found BF extremely painful for the first few weeks. Cracked bleeding nipples and crying in pain. BF support group improved my latch, but only to a point: on a second visit they said the latch method was good but "she just doesn't open her mouth very far". I found rematching just hurt more and rarely improved the latch. Generally DD slept for good chunks at night, so night time and morning feeds were not too bad, but evenings she would cluster feed (sitting on the boob for 4 to 5 hours with only very short dozy breaks) and by the end of those sessions we would both be crying

I was desperate not to FF but after 6 week check when she was still dropping percentiles OH persuaded me to try putting in one bottle of formula a day. I reluctantly agreed and haven't looked back. It meant I would BF at around 7, then bottle around 8, which completely cut out the evening cluster. She would then sleep a couple of hours, have a bed time BF at around 11, and then sleep as usual.

My nipples recovered completely within a week. I occasionally found myself full when she was sleepy, so pumped at those times which has given me a little supply for the freezer. OH also really enjoyed having some bonding time with her in the evenings (before he barely got a chance to hold her as she spent the whole evening glued to my boob).

She is now 16 weeks. We are both better at latching, and so we only need the formula every other day. wouldn't be at all surprised if we manage to get back to EBF over time.

But the real difference is mindset. I now see formula as just another tool, like a pump or nipple shields.

That us just my experience, but I would say that most of my friends have found BF really difficult to start with, and they all have healthy happy DCs. Some went fully formula, some mixed, and some managed to stay EBF. You will find a way through too!

LT xxx

[Flingmoo]

Some thoughts which may help:

Feed feed feed even if you're not seeing any cues, just keep trying him on the breast. Then if you still have an oversupply after a few weeks, try googling "oversupply" and "block feeding". Kellymom is a good website for this sort of info.

Agree with previous posters who mentioned squishing your nipple to make it easier for baby to chomp onto. Imagine you're eating a massive burger, you squish it down to fit it into your mouth! You need to do something similar to help baby fit a nice big mouthful of boob into his little mouth. The more he's got in his mouth the less painful it'll be on your nipples.

Lansinoh nipple cream will take the edge off the soreness somewhat.

Breast pads: I found the disposable ones really scratchy on my sore nipples. You could try washable ones, I found them much softer. Got them on Amazon. OR wadged-up muslins or hankies are lovely and soft. Doesn't matter if you look silly in those early days walking around with big wadges of cloth sticking out of your bra!

Massage with your hands towards the nipple while feeding or expressing, to help get rid of the lumps - you don't want a blocked duct to turn into mastitis.

Keep at it, it's worth it, your nipples will toughen up in no time and it gets so much easier!

[AntoinetteCosway]

Thanks guys, as I said though I've decided now's the time to quit-I'm past my limits!

[LightTripper]

Fair enough. It's all good nourishing stuff whichever way you go!!

LT xx