Does this sound OK for day 4?

[AntoinetteCosway]

Sorry to post again for reassurance-this is all new to me!

Am engorged as milk came in yesterday and DS finds it difficult to latch on to monster boobs and was getting frustrated and frantic really quickly and then spending ages trying to latch and not managing it. Last night out of desperation I gave him about 30ml of formula to calm him down and then he managed to latch on, so that led to today's 'plan' (only formulated after several more extremely frustrating feeds) which went as follows...

1. Managed to express about 6oz with a pump which took out the engorgement and some of the lumpiness. Took about an hour with a Medela swing.
   
2. Fed DS 30ml expressed milk and he then latched on but only on one side for about 15 mins before falling asleep. Couldn't interest him in the other side. Argh.
   
3. Expressed more from the side he hadn't fed from as didn't want that boob to end up engorged again. Got another 4oz (including a little bit from the boob he did feed from too) in about 45 mins.
   
4. Next feed-gave DS 10ml expressed milk and then convinced him into staying awake for 15 mins on one boob, switched to the other and managed about 6 mins before he fell asleep. Gave him another 10ml expressed milk and put him back on second breast until he fell asleep again, about another 10 mins.
   
5. Give or take some of the timings, repeat.
   

I'm happy that giving him little laps of expressed milk from a cup both wakes him up and keeps him calm enough to then deal with actually latching on but I'm worried that he doesn't stay awake long enough on the breasts and that he'll get reliant on the expressed milk and lose interest in actually feeding from me. Is that likely? Should I try giving him smaller amounts of expressed milk in the hopes that it has the same effect but he doesn't get so sleepy?

Yesterday I experimented with letting him just stay on one boob for as long as he wanted and he managed a max of about 25 mins, but then I think that partly led to the agony of engorgement I had overnight as they weren't both being drained at the same rate.

So what's better-let him drain one as much as poss at the expense of the other (or alternate feeds from one and expressing on the other which is very time consuming and noisy especially at night), or aim for as long as possible on both, which is hard to gauge in advance of course (and goes against my instincts to switch if he's actually feeding) but seems to be about 15 mins on both?

Sorry that's so long.

[mrscog]

Have you got any lansinoh? It really helps cracks but you need to apply it religiously after every feed? It's good you're getting him checked for TT, if they say he doesn't have one then also see if you can get a peer supporter or breastfeeding support worker to observe a full feed. There might be an adjustment to your positioning which will help. As for the fullness, see if you can get your baby to have a quick feed - feeling full is a sign you should give a feed.

Keep going, it gets so much better after a few weeks.

[CelticPromise]

Oh bless you. If your nipples are cracked there is likely something wrong with the latch, tt could be the reason or could be something else. Lots of mothers I see will grit their teeth through a painful feed, but it's better to take baby off and try again. I hope you get some good advice this morning.

Are all feeds painful? Do any feel better than others? Are you confident you know what to look for in a latch? If your breasts are large and hard I wonder if your baby is sucking on the nipple only and not getting a good mouthful of breast?

[trufflehunterthebadger]

I had very cracked nipples as the beginning, it was v painful but one day all the old skin on the nipple sort of shed itself like pulling off a loose scab and the underneath layer was much tougher.

My advice to all new BFers is to take it one feed at a time. Don't think about what will happen tomorrow, tonight, next week. Just think about the right here, right now

[AntoinetteCosway]

Had a pretty depressing morning at the hospital with the infant lactation consultant lady. She said DS doesn't have a tongue tie but he 'does something odd' with his tongue and gums, she can't fix it and it may or may not get better, but probably not. She said to carry on expressing and giving it before every feed so as to try and avoid the most urgent of sucks being on the breast, and that it might be best just to exclusively express as my nipples won't heal with the way he sucks, though his latch is fine. She also said she was amazed I'd carried on this long as it was clearly not working and she was sorry she couldn't help.

The NCT BF counsellor who's been helping me says she does think he has a tongue tie but if the hospital don't/won't snip we'd have to go private at £300-which is a lot given that I basically have two experts who disagree with each other and I don't know who is correct. £300 is a lot to get a third opinion...but then if it IS a TT it would be well spent to get it fixed if we could find the money somewhere.

I don't mind expressing but I feel like exclusive expressing is pretty much the worst of both worlds. The benefit is he gets the breast milk of course but then the cons are that it's enormously time consuming (and I have a toddler too) and gives none of the loveliness of BF with all the hassle of bottles.

So I'm pretty miserable. And to make matters worse my community MW came round this afternoon and said it's pretty much unheard of for this woman at the hospital to not be able to help!! So I feel like I or DS or both of us are freaks.

So far I've decided to just carry on giving expressed milk at the start of feeds and then trying to BF on both sides and not rush into any decision. I really want it to work and I really don't want to exclusively express so I might just carry on like this for a couple of weeks and see whether him getting bigger has any effect. Probably wishful thinking but I don't want to throw in the towel yet.

[springbabydays]

I really admire your attitude.

Could you get a third opinion for free, at another hospital perhaps?

[AntoinetteCosway]

Don't be too admiring, am currently sitting in tears while he has his whole feed from a cup because he simply won't latch on. I don't know how long I can do this. This afternoon has gone-

2-2.20, cup
2.20-2.45, boob
2.50-3.00, cup
3.00-3.10, boob
3.10-3.30 MW visit
3.30-4.00, trying and failing to latch on
4.00-4.30, both crying, DS eventually naps on DH till 6
4.30-6.00, pumping
6.10-6.30, trying and failing to latch on (obviously, because I'd just bloody pumped like an idiot)
6.30-now, cup

I am fucking exhausted and can't stop crying. The idea of this carrying on for the forseeable future is pretty soul destroying.

[hollie84]

£300 sounds like a lot - where in the country are you? Could you find someone else who could give a second opinion - a different hospital or find a lactation consultant?

[AntoinetteCosway]

North Yorks. Have found somewhere that will do it for £200 but it's an hour and a half away and they only have a clinic once a fortnight on a Saturday-need to phone them tomorrow and find out whether the next one is this coming Sat or the week after.

He has now finally latched on to one side for 10 mins before coming off again and getting frantic. Now back on the cup. This is such a bloody slippery slope. And through it all I keep hearing that woman saying that the pain isn't going to go away. I know there are bigger issues in the world but I feel so sorry for myself and DS at the moment.

[hollie84]

Can you get back in touch with the hospital infant feeding person and clarify what she told you? Is there an actual problem with his mouth that means he can't feed properly (in which case surely she could refer you on to someone else?) or is it just something that she isn't able to help with but someone else can? She may not actually be confident in diagnosing a tongue tie herself - I knew there was a good chance DS2 would have one and literally asked every nurse, midwife, paed and HV I saw after he was born but it took 3 weeks to find the one person at the hospital who could diagnose one

[springbabydays]

Oh honey of course you're in tears, your baby is just a few days old - your hormones are completely in control right now and even without the frustration you're experiencing, you would be feeling tearful.

[CultureSucksDownWords]

I don't think you have mentioned this in your posts, but have you tried using nipple shields? They can be very helpful and can be a temporary thing as well.

Sometimes latch can improve as they get older, as their mouth grows, and you can move back towards ebf.

[CelticPromise]

I agree that shields can be helpful if you are very sore. Also I would call any private tt people and see what the deal is- I would think it's worth checking at least.

Cup feeding can be very wearing. If you do decide to move to a bottle there are ways to do it that are less likely to interfere with bf. Also don't worry if you have just pumped- you will always have milk.

You have been expressing a good amount for day 4. Do you feel your milk flows fast?

[mrscog]

Yy to nipple shields as a possible interim solution. You need to be a bit careful as they can hinder transfer and therefore supply. Your DS sounds like mine. I couldn't get him to latch for any if week 1 and I expressed and cup fed. Started nipple shields on day 7 and he was able to get a latch. I did do some expressing too as an insurance against the shields reducing supply. As he got bigger he learnt to latch and we were shield free by 6 weeks. I would seek a 2nd opinion on the TT . Keep going, you really are doing great xx

[sleepysleepy]

Where in north yorks? Pm me if you want I know a la leche lady who is excellent in that region.

[AntoinetteCosway]

'Can you get back in touch with the hospital infant feeding person and clarify what she told you? Is there an actual problem with his mouth that means he can't feed properly (in which case surely she could refer you on to someone else?) or is it just something that she isn't able to help with but someone else can? She may not actually be confident in diagnosing a tongue tie herself.'

This is the bit I find most upsetting. She's the 'infant lactation' specialist in a supposedly breast feeding friendly hospital-she is the top of the chain as far as people we can see within the NHS in our area, and she said there is 'something' strange about the way he uses his tongue and gums, but that she couldn't tell what and she couldn't help. I just can't believe that's as far as she can go. My MW was horrified and said this woman's usually a miracle worker and helps everyone! But my DS is just written off as a bit strange!

Anyway am not too impressed with myself at the moment. Had an emotional, hormonal tantrum about how it was too hard and I couldn't do it and went to bed leaving DH to cup feed DS for a feed, then he slept for ages and I didn't wake up so tried to latch him on way later than it should have been (about 5 hours between feeds) and it was immediate agony so I'm afraid I just burst into tears and handed him back to DH. I'm not feeling very strong or persistent at the moment. So he had another cup feed and I tried to express but even that didn't work and I only got 1oz despite my breasts feeling like melons, plus it was super painful, so more ridiculous crying. There's enough expressed milk in the fridge for one more feed and I can see us using it at the next one and if I can't express more at that stage then we're buggered.

I'm so upset. Days 1-2 were painful as hell but at least he was latching on regularly. It seems like it's got harder and harder as I've got weaker and weaker.

[AntoinetteCosway]

Have got shields in Milton at the mo so will try them next feed.

[flymo79]

So sorry antoinette, sounds horrid. I am on day 12 and can almost hardly believe we got here. Nips are still painful but have improved a bit (only sting at beginning of feed). I can't help with the TT diagnosis which just sounds confusing sand cruel, but didn't want to read and run. Keep trying for those second, third, hundredth opinions even, I think you know when something's not right xxxx

[WaffleWiffle]

4.30am for your post, I am feeling your pain.

My post may go against the grain and ethos of this thread, but remember that breast feeding is not the be-all-and-end-all.

I EBF my first two children, was peer supporter and considered I was someone who knew what she was doing with breast feeding. Very anti formula. That was until DC3 came along.

For reasons I don't know, he just was a reluctant breast-feeder (he's 4 now). He didn't cry very much and slept a lot - but was loosing weight consistently for the first 3 weeks of his life. You don't mention if your baby's weight has been taken yet?

Anyway, about 3 1/2 weeks in - I remember reaching breaking point at around 4.30am one morning and deciding that was it. I got myself dressed and put DC3 in a coat and went out in the car to the local 24 hour Tesco.

Fully and openly crying in the supermarket at ridiculous-O'clock, I bought all the bottle feeding gubbins (had never formula fed so had no bottles etc in the house) and he started on formula there and then.

And you know what? It was not the end of the world. Boy did I cry about it, but everything was OK. I don't want to over-play the benefits of formula over breast here, because it is not helpful in your quest to breastfeed. But please, please don't beat yourself up if you reach this decision.

Please keep trying with your breastfeeding. There is lots of support out there and you are very early days yet. You are bound to be hormonal and tearful only a week after giving birth, so give yourself some time. Take one day, one feed at a time. But know that everything will be OK.

[redcaryellowcar]

i am so sorry to hear that you are having problems, and a bit angry that the supposed expert has been so little help.
i don't have much 'technical' advice but wanted to say the day my milk came in with ds1 was horrific, i felt so emotional i could hardly hold it together, i just wanted to say try to persevere for a day or two more, you will probably feel loads better once your hormones settle a bit as at the moment its really hard.maybe take to your bed, keep your top half uncovered as much as possible as fresh air will help with healing your nipples, keep baby close by and feed as often as he wants, even in little bits, newborn babies are drowsy, but him being naked (with happy on!!) will help stimulate him to feed.
ask dh to bear with it, and to be the 'hunter gatherer' so he needs to bring you lots of (de-caff) drinks and food. i found a mars bar particularly helpful as just needed a sugar rush , and i wouldn't normally eat them.
please don't worry about entertaining guests let them know you are just getting feeding sorted and then you would love for them to visit, ideally bringing a plated meal for you would& dh to eat that evening or something to freeze for later?

[CelticPromise]

You are not weak. You are amazing. Stress and upset will certainly inhibit your let down, that is natural. Try some gentle massage in a warm bath, maybe a bath with baby. And if you decide to have a break, it needn't be the end of bf.

Thinking of you.

[AntoinetteCosway]

You are all so nice. Thank you so much for your encouragement and kindness-it's good to have more voices being nice to counteract me beating myself up! Tried nipple shields this morning and he managed a few sucks-the pain in the breast from his gumming was still there but at least the end of my nipple was protected. Unfortunately he wouldn't latch on to the other side at all (which is bleeding a lot-lovely). I tried pumping in the night and this morning and got nothing-I think I'm so stressed by anticipating the pain that it's affecting that too now. And we're all out of expressed milk, so next feed feels a bit do or die.

[AntoinetteCosway]

Right. Lovely, lovely lactation consultant from Milk Matters was a star this morning. She agrees with the hospital that carrying on putting him on the breast will only make things worse though she said there's almost certainly a reason why his tongue/gums are doing what they are (an advance on hospital lady's shoulder shrug) but we might never know. She's advised stopping cup feeding as at this age they need to suck so if he's not on the breast he needs a bottle. She gave me loads of stuff on exclusive expressing which is really helpful so I'm going to give that a go and try not to put too much pressure on myself. Expressing at night really didn't work for me so I hope I can get my body into some kind of rhythm where I can get what DS needs for 24 hours all out during the day if not we may end up doing both expressing and formula, though I'm aware it would be easy for that to become just formula if I don't get the expressing down to a fine art. Fingers crossed.

[CultureSucksDownWords]

I would suggest using a teat that mimics the suction needed for breastfeeding (we used the Medela Calma but there are other brands too). You might find that after a break for you to heal, and for your baby to grow a bit bigger and also get used to sucking, you may be able to try directly breastfeeding again. The introduction of some formula doesn't have to be the end of breastfeeding. It can be a useful tool to let you heal, try and relax about the situation, and then try again at the breast later on if you feel it is what you want to try.