Five year old can't seem to function by herself (long)

[JinkxMonsoon]

DD is 5 and has just started Reception. September born. And she has always been incapable of occupying herself without constant adult 1-1 attention. She has never been the sort of child to occupy herself with a toy or activity alone, even as a toddler. Her toys are always untouched. When left to her own devices she lazes on the sofa in front of the TV/Netflix/YouTube/iPad. Those are her only interests, if you ask her.

It's not like she doesn't enjoy crafts, colouring, looking at books, practising writing, doing puzzles, etc. It's just that she won't do them without an adult sitting next to her CONSTANTLY. The feedback from preschool was "she's a wanderer" who wouldn't get stuck into anything during a free play set up (which is a lot of what preschool is about, isn't it?).

It got even worse for a bit when her baby brother arrived when she was 3.8. She'd call out things like "I'm on my own!" and "I need someone to look after me!" even if I was in the same room as her - if I wasn't sitting next to her she had a problem with it. I mainly put it down to jealousy and her generally being a quite difficult, stubborn, demanding personality (to put it in context, she's a horribly fussy eater and refused to toilet train until she was nearly 4) but, if that were true, she'd behave different away from home, surely?

I actually mentioned this problem to her class teacher when I met with her at the start of term. And sure enough, at parents' evening last week she brought it up as an issue. DD won't get stuck into anything during free play. She just wanders. The teacher has been wracking her brains for an "in" and did we have any suggestions? I could only say no, because it's always been such a constant struggle.

I put DD to the test on Friday after school. Brought a few toys down and set them on the dining table. She chose a mosaic puzzle (that she'd forgotten she had, obviously!) and I sat with her for a while until my 18mo needed my attention. She then demanded help. I gently said that I was going to stay in the next room, but kept talking to her, suggesting she do all the purple tiles next. Refused. Lip wobble. Then full on sobbing and snot. Same result every time. She'll react in the same way if I refuse to help her get dressed, or wipe her arse, or accompany her to the toilet even, sometimes. She seems so self piteous, like she views this as rejection. And although there's obviously a sibling rivalry element to that scenario, there's more to it for sure. It's more widespread than merely demanding my presence when I'm occupied with DS.

It's got to the point now where I'm totally exasperated with her. Her life must be so boring if all she does at school is wander around aimlessly, unable to choose an activity and join in. Likewise, she has a bedroom full of toys and puzzles and STUFF she could play with, and it's all wasted on her because she mostly chooses to do nothing but watch TV.

I'm really starting to get frustrated with it all and I'm questioning what on EARTH I've done wrong to make her this way. She's certainly been "spoiled" for adult attention, since I'm a SAHM, but there must be plenty of children of SAHMs that can function without an adult looming over them constantly.

What can I do? I'm afraid I'm not inclined to persevere with forcing her to do activities without me because, I'm sorry to say, her tears and histrionics just piss me off. Sad but true. I just can't stand it. I'm just so exhausted having two children who demand 100% of me 100% of the time. If DD could just sit and happily play by herself for half an hour, it would be miraculous. Is it too much to ask?

[katiegoestoaldi]

Nothing constructive to add but my 5 yr old is the same. He was also a Velcro baby, now he's a Velcro child!

[Namejustfornappies]

Yeah my 5yo was a Velcro baby as well. The temperament was there from birth!

[Toomanywheeliebinsagain]

jink My DD (six) is able to play v well without an adult. In fact, her and her sibling play for hours together. However, she's on a TV ban at the moment. Makes life much easier - no angry tantrums when we turn it off. Makes TV special rather than normal. I have radio on though as background noise. What's her after activities like? Does she do swimming or rainbows?

[annoyedofnorwich]

Does she ever play outside?

[AdrienneVole]

I think there has been research between attention spans and screen time.

She may have learned things but at this age it's about motor control and brain development as well.

Honestly - I'm not bashing, but I do think if you can take the screens away you'll see a difference.

[Namejustfornappies]

Adrienne - there is also correlation /causation thingy. I know I resorted to tv to get a sodding break because my child just could not play with toys or other children AT ALL and I just needed peace. Oh and also didn't sleep. She didn't see any tv until 1yo when I cracked.
Dd2 has always known tv and can happily play by herself, with toys. And with other children. She also enjoys me playing with her, but doesn't have that same constant NEED.

[JinkxMonsoon]

Does she ever play outside?

Why do you ask such a blunt question, norwich?

She won't play in the garden unless I'm with her, no. And this past summer I had a barely toddling baby who fell over constantly, so it was a choice between being in the garden stressed out of my mind trying to stop DS from maiming himself constantly, or staying indoors.

We stayed indoors.

I tried shutting her outside and leaving her to play (door had to be shut so that DS didn't launch himself head first onto the patio) and she hammered on the door every 60-90 seconds, so I just lost the will to live and brought her back inside.

Park visits also a logistical nightmare because keeping track of wobbly toddler and DD is, frankly, a two person job. Other people may be quite capable of managing that, but I'm not. Just in case you were going to suggest that.

What's her after activities like? Does she do swimming or rainbows?

She does nothing. We gave her the option of going swimming or to something like gymnastics (even took her to see the local sports centre which has great facilities) but she just refused. And she's so stubborn there was just no point forcing her to attend a class when she doesn't want to do it.

[Bringmewineandcake]

I have one too! Mine is just turned 4 though. Would watch hours of shit on the iPad if I let her occasionally do but absolutely can't play anything else by herself. It was the same before DD2 came along 5 months ago so not just because of having a sibling, although that obviously makes life much harder as I can't split myself in two. No helpful comments, just empathy

[Cucumber5]

I think you need to turn off the screens for a couple of weeks. She needs to pass through the annoying boredom threshold before starting to play.

Secondly completely give 100% quality attention to your DD at specific points during the day. Then ease away when she's settled doing stuff and randomly check in with her

[JinkxMonsoon]

I'm definitely going to reduce the TV time, starting when she gets in from school tomorrow.

Have you tried giving DC1 100% quality attention when you have 18mo DC2 screaming at your feet though? I know DD needs quality time and I wish I could achieve it, but it's not possible when DS needs me too. I hate it. I hate feeling like I'm failing them both of an evening, but there's only so much I can do and I'm so frigging tired by then...

I hope you don't feel like I'm making excuses. I actually promised DD that we'd go out yesterday, just the two of us, and then I got hit by a 24 hour bug and spent most of the day in bed with awful nausea and fever going up and down like a yoyo. Felt terrible - in both senses of the word.

[oldbirdy]

You could also try the choice board (,to make visual her choices and reduce the number) and timer (to gradually increase the expectations on her to pursue a single activity). I mentioned up thread but you haven't picked up on it. I haven't made this strategy up, it is tried and tested and can be used at home and school. Fwiw I am a child psychologist and this is a recognised technique for children with the sorts of issues you describe.

[JinkxMonsoon]

Sorry birdy, I did see your suggestion of a choice board and actually Googled it so I could look at it in more detail later.

As for "the sorts of issues I describe" - am I describing behaviour which is considered outside the spectrum of normal, in your opinion?

[annoyedofnorwich]

I asked because she sounds like she doesn't. Outdoor play is really important in my opinion. If you don't agree, fine, but personally I'd consider it. Can you get her in some sort of out of school provision where outdoor free play is possible?

[JinkxMonsoon]

Of course outdoor play is important. I just couldn't see how it was relevant to my question. Still don't, if I'm honest.

[annoyedofnorwich]

You're asking about her ability to direct her own learning (play is learning at this age). The amount of freely chosen outdoor play has a massive impact on ability to do this. So if it was me I'd be looking for ways to maximise outdoor free play.

[annoyedofnorwich]

If you're interested in this, read this www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/aug/16/childre-nature-outside-play-health
as a starting point. I'm not saying I fully agree with the whole article but various bits of it are interesting and relevant. If you can't see the relevance I'm happy to explain further.

[Newmanwannabe]

Do you have a pet? Maybe a cat or small dog might help her with her confidence and independence. She might play happily outside with it as well? And for going outside you could try to put your toddler in a carrier then you wouldn't have to worry about him running off at the park

[Haudyerwheesht]

The thing is when you have more than one kid you just have to carry on and do stuff even if it's a pain in the Arse / stressful. I'm sure you do do this but there's no reason why a baby / toddler couldn't have even outside along with you and Dd.

[ZeroDarkHurty]

Sounds difficult! Does she have friends at school? How is she at playing without adults when they're around? Perhaps they'll teach her a little more independent play by osmosis over the course of the school year. Perhaps playdates with one structured, parent-supported activity and some free play may help?

[AdrienneVole]

The thing is Monsoon, you complain that she won't play by herself but then you also complain that you can't take her to the park / garden / function without the TV because of your other child.

You say she was three and a half when you had your son: did you go outside then?

[ThatsWotSheSaid]

My DD was like this I cut screen time to 1 hour a week and she's a different child. There are lots of studies that show the affect of tv on young brains. Professor Aric Sigman has written a book on it.
I also agree on the positive affects of outdoor play and I am a huge fan of messy play for the same reasons. I think it is an attention issue. The umbrella term attention covers a few different things. For example, many children with attention issues can have very fixed maintained attention on an activity of their own choosing but find attending to an adult lead task (such as school lessons) very difficult. It sounds like your daughter needs adult prompts to initiate the next element of the activity and to maintain interest which would be classed as attention difficulties.

[TupsNSups]

My eldest was like this, he is nearly 20 now so obviously no longer a problem BUT he never actually grew out of it, he was like this all through primary, just could not occupy himself and never played with toys etc on his own. It was screen time or he was 'bored'.

Once he got to high school and could go out more on his own with his friends (to sit in another parents house and stare at a screen) things changed a little.

I have two younger dc and I was shocked at from a young age how they used to actually play and how independant they were. I didn't realise how big the problem was with my eldest till the other 2 came along and I seen how they just got on with stuff.

[LuchiMangsho]

You won't like what I have to say but I'll say it. When DS was tiny I began to train him 5 mins at a time to play by himself. He would whinge but unless he was upset, I'd leave him to it. He is the same age as your daughter now and able to play independently. It's something you have to teach them. But much more importantly, we are a mostly non-screen family. This entire weekend DS has watched TV for 30 mins. He has no access to an iPad. He only has access to an old IPod with music on it because he plays the violin and loves music. He used to watch a lot more TV but I found that it then became the default for him- there is no incentive to do much more if there is always the option of the TV/YouTube/iPad so I went cold turkey. It's a pain, but I work full time (but flexible hours)- 3:30-6:30 is the only time I have with him anyway. It was a big step for me to go mostly screen free as much as it was for him but it's made a huge impact behaviourally. Once he is in bed by 6:30-7, I do all my chores and also prep for next day's dinner. That way I am not tempted to use the TV post school. I can see that having an 18m old to boot makes it harder (because 18m was the age when I became too reliant on the TV myself).

It also helps that he can read. If he comes to me saying that he is bored, I point to the wall of books in the house and ask him to take a pick (whereas I might have resorted to CBeebies earlier), and again by insisting on it, he now does it of his own accord.

I have to say amongst his peers a child who did zero extra curricular activities would also be a little unusual. DS does swimming on the weekend (other than his violin) and again, most of the kids in his class do a lot more.

[Ledkr]

My dd is the same too. She's also 5.
Going out is my saviour. In fact we joke about having her being a bit like having a large dog who needs walking at least once a day.
I quite like playing with her to be honest. I think over the years I've adapted so that I know I can't get a lot done when she's about so I do it when she's st school.
She does a few hobbies too which give me some space.
She likes dancing, have you thought about that rather than sport?

[JinkxMonsoon]

The thing is Monsoon, you complain that she won't play by herself but then you also complain that you can't take her to the park / garden / function without the TV because of your other child

Now you're just twisting my words. At what point have I said I rely on the TV to occupy DC1 because DC2 takes up too much of my time?

I've said that I can't manage quality 1-1 time with DC1 after school because DC2 would scream at my feet. I don't think that's unusual. I don't know how people with three or more children ever manage, but that won't be a concern for me thankfully.

As for outdoor stuff, that's really irrelevant right now because a) it's not going to happen after school Mon-Fri because it's too dark and cold and children are too tired and b) our garden is too small (and it's too dark and cold in winter.

You say she was three and a half when you had your son: did you go outside then?

I've had enough of this line of questioning tbh Adrienne. I'm not sure I even want to dignify it with a response because you've obviously made your mind up about me and nothing I could possibly say would be acceptable in your eyes.