Five year old can't seem to function by herself (long)

[JinkxMonsoon]

DD is 5 and has just started Reception. September born. And she has always been incapable of occupying herself without constant adult 1-1 attention. She has never been the sort of child to occupy herself with a toy or activity alone, even as a toddler. Her toys are always untouched. When left to her own devices she lazes on the sofa in front of the TV/Netflix/YouTube/iPad. Those are her only interests, if you ask her.

It's not like she doesn't enjoy crafts, colouring, looking at books, practising writing, doing puzzles, etc. It's just that she won't do them without an adult sitting next to her CONSTANTLY. The feedback from preschool was "she's a wanderer" who wouldn't get stuck into anything during a free play set up (which is a lot of what preschool is about, isn't it?).

It got even worse for a bit when her baby brother arrived when she was 3.8. She'd call out things like "I'm on my own!" and "I need someone to look after me!" even if I was in the same room as her - if I wasn't sitting next to her she had a problem with it. I mainly put it down to jealousy and her generally being a quite difficult, stubborn, demanding personality (to put it in context, she's a horribly fussy eater and refused to toilet train until she was nearly 4) but, if that were true, she'd behave different away from home, surely?

I actually mentioned this problem to her class teacher when I met with her at the start of term. And sure enough, at parents' evening last week she brought it up as an issue. DD won't get stuck into anything during free play. She just wanders. The teacher has been wracking her brains for an "in" and did we have any suggestions? I could only say no, because it's always been such a constant struggle.

I put DD to the test on Friday after school. Brought a few toys down and set them on the dining table. She chose a mosaic puzzle (that she'd forgotten she had, obviously!) and I sat with her for a while until my 18mo needed my attention. She then demanded help. I gently said that I was going to stay in the next room, but kept talking to her, suggesting she do all the purple tiles next. Refused. Lip wobble. Then full on sobbing and snot. Same result every time. She'll react in the same way if I refuse to help her get dressed, or wipe her arse, or accompany her to the toilet even, sometimes. She seems so self piteous, like she views this as rejection. And although there's obviously a sibling rivalry element to that scenario, there's more to it for sure. It's more widespread than merely demanding my presence when I'm occupied with DS.

It's got to the point now where I'm totally exasperated with her. Her life must be so boring if all she does at school is wander around aimlessly, unable to choose an activity and join in. Likewise, she has a bedroom full of toys and puzzles and STUFF she could play with, and it's all wasted on her because she mostly chooses to do nothing but watch TV.

I'm really starting to get frustrated with it all and I'm questioning what on EARTH I've done wrong to make her this way. She's certainly been "spoiled" for adult attention, since I'm a SAHM, but there must be plenty of children of SAHMs that can function without an adult looming over them constantly.

What can I do? I'm afraid I'm not inclined to persevere with forcing her to do activities without me because, I'm sorry to say, her tears and histrionics just piss me off. Sad but true. I just can't stand it. I'm just so exhausted having two children who demand 100% of me 100% of the time. If DD could just sit and happily play by herself for half an hour, it would be miraculous. Is it too much to ask?

[Handsoffmysweets]

My friends daughter does the wailing drama queen and inspecting for marks/scratches that she can make an absolute mountain of. She is 10 now and it's no exaggeration to say that my friend is absolutely drained. Her attitude is like that of a teenagers, she still has regular crying fits and tbh, although a lovely girl half the time, the other half she pushes DF to her limits. She has been like this since the day she was born. DF has 4 children, all watched TV, all did same/similar activities, it just appears to be part of her personality. Oh and ref screen time, I think you've been given a bit of a hard time there as the tv is always on in this house and my lot are fine occupying themselves. I definitely think a couple of after school activities might help though. It'll give you a break if nothing else!

[Backingvocals]

Good point about the anxiety. DN has anxiety and it comes out as intransigence. Wiggly's post is helpful I think.

[LongDivision]

hi Jinkx, I'm sorry you've received such OTT responses. DS is about the same age as your DD, and has global developmental delay. He has displayed this type of behaviour in play, and it is because he has needed help to learn how to play - it does not come as naturally to him as most children. With lots of support and guidance, Portage, choice boards, etc., he has come on really well. But I resent the new brigade of Wild Outdoor Play type people who claim that all children will develop perfectly if only they were left alone outside. This is not true of my child. He needs help to learn to play, just as some children need help with maths or social skills or whatever. It sounds like your daughter needs some extra support at school, as by this age she should be able to choose an activity and stick with it for at least five minutes. I'm quite sure it has nothing to do with television or parenting. it seems more like she needs more support, not less.

[JinkxMonsoon]

Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions.

I'm tired of defending myself against accusations of rudeness () and those who are reading way too much into every little thing I say.

So I'm bowing out now because I'm finding the responses far too harsh and unhelpful.

[CocktailQueen]

Sorry - have just read 2nd page of thread and realised that you've addressed some of my points above. Sorry! Didn't mean to bang on. Good luck, OP.

[CocktailQueen]

I never said that she can't concentrate. She can't play by herself without adult supervision. It's not quite the same thing.

Oh, sorry, OP, but when you said the feedback from preschool was "she's a wanderer" who wouldn't get stuck into anything during a free play set up, I took that to mean she couldn't concentrate on anything.

You've had good advice here.

I'd take her out every day too, if possible - can you put the baby in a sling? Kids need outdoor play and discovery,. They need fresh air. They don't need to be 'learning stuff on YouTube' (btw, did you know that dc have to be 13 before they can legally use YouTube? And 18 before they can have an account? Sorry if you already know this and have parental controls in place, but there's so much adult stuff on YouTube that you have to be really careful with dc using it).

[SisterViktorine]

I wonder if the lack of independence comes from never having been allowed any independence, and actually independence being inadvertently presented as a bit dangerous.

OP, you mention not wanting to take your DS to the park, or even let him play in the garden, because he might hurt himself? Do you realise that most parents do not feel this way? If you were also like this with DD she may, without you meaning her to, have absorbed the message that she is not really safe without mummy right next to her all the time. This would explain the anxiety she shows in her response to you trying to get her to do things without you.

[Yamadori]

My dd (only child) was a bit like this and what worked for us was praising every single tiny thing that was done independently, and telling her how clever she was for doing it 'all by herself', no matter how trivial.

The other thing I used to do when faced with the inevitable "Mummy, play with me" was to respond consistently with "OK, in a moment, I just need to finish this..." and make sure that it took slightly longer each time. As long as she knows that you are coming back to play with her, then she should eventually be content to wait a minute or two. If you are really lucky, she will get bored with waiting for you and play by herself!

'Helping Mummy' is good too - taking an empty mug into the kitchen for you, fetching the post off the doormat, anything really. She will then lose her insecurity and realise that she is capable of doing things unsupervised and doesn't always need adult help.

[AdrienneVole]

To be honest, if you are half as rude and hostile and aggressive in real life as you are on here, I can see why your DD is so difficult.

Like I say, good luck.

[sirfredfredgeorge]

How much independence of choice does she actually have in areas other than playing? Reading the thread is interesting to me, as there's a lot of call for more control, and more dictating of what she can do, despite the problem being that she cannot act independently.

ie the result we want is more independence, yet the suggested route to there seems to be remove independence of choice.

I can't advise on what might work DD can self organise play, but then she also self organises much of the rest of her life.

[JinkxMonsoon]

Yes Name! She's one for closely examining her hands etc for tiny marks or scrapes and then tells me that it reeeeeeally hurts and desperately needs a plaster. She's such a drama queen.

The suggestion of anxiety does reasonate too. I was an anxious child and I do see a lot of myself in her sometimes, even though she's very loud and extrovert and unlike me.

[Whooptydoo1]

Hi OP, I replied to your post early on (second I think- go me) having read the rest of the thread, I've think you've been given a hard time, both my children are totally different, both were Velcro babies, it's only my DD that continued to be until she was 6ish, my DS is 3 and has always been much more outgoing, into toys and independent, I think it's part of their personality, as I said before and others have said, try setting her up with an activity and putting her off for a bit before you join her, extend this time a little bit each time (use a timer if you think this will help and the visual que may help her) lots of positive praise, I think it will get better if you start to adjust the boundaries slowly (so your not dealing with horrific meltdowns) no one on here is a perfect parent, just accept the advice you feel might be helpful and don't feel you have to defend yourself, everyone's child is different and responds differently to praise/punishment etc, however if you are worried about her, speak some more to the school, HV or whoever

[Namejustfornappies]

No I completely get you.

My dd1 stubbed her toe this morning. Little scrape, no blood, no bruise.

Oh. My. Goodness. It was the END OF TGE WORLD. Wailing for 30 minutes, and im not kidding. And I have a poorly baby and dd2 refusing a coat when it's chucking it down and we are already late for school run.

But everything is soooo dramatic and she needs an adult soon much. And shhe is anxious about every little thing. Can't be in a room on her own. And finds tv soothing.

[JinkxMonsoon]

She's already learned that she can control you by even suggesting she might kick off. All toddlers do this, but it's not normal to still be doing it a lot at 5. She's still doing it because it really works for her

I think perhaps I need to redefine "tantrum" here. She hasn't had a furious tantrum in quite some time, but is more prone now to crying in self pity when I say I won't help her play (as in last week) or when we say we wont wipe her arse for her etc. Sometimes it can escalate into anger (especially if I react to her tears angrily or unsympathetically) but sometimes it just remains a kind of "poor me" drama queen kind of crying I don't want to suggest that she's a regular tantrummer who still manipulates me into doing her bidding at the grand old age of five, because that's rather wide of the mark. She's long grown out of that.

Jeez, it's so easy for words on a screen to give completely the wrong impression isn't it? This thread has me completely wrung out with defending myself.

[wigglybeezer]

Oh and acknowledge her feelings calmly, her anxiety about being on her own is real, stubbornness is her tool to protect herself.

[Namejustfornappies]

Wigglybeezer - that rings many bells with my dd1. She is highly anxious and finds cbeebies soothing.

[SisterViktorine]

I agree with PP that you need to give some thought to how you will deal with tantrums in a way you can cope with- otherwise how will you deal with the kick offs over wanting an iPhone when she's 8, or being allowed to stay out last with her mates when she's 13- and a million other things that have to be stood up to over time.

[wigglybeezer]

I don't think it's the screen time, that's far too simplistic. OP, she very much reminds me of my oldest DS, who is now 18.
After a mixture of testing at school, observation by me, and knowledge I picked up about child development (due to one of his siblings having high functioning autism), I came to the conclusion that he had: above average anxiety levels, below average concentration, imagination, visual spatial abilities and working memory.

This is his personality and neuro developmental profile and explains why he finds screen time soothing,. It is,not caused directly by the screen time in my opinion ( unless that time is really excessive) but the trouble is that an anxious child will always hold out for the easy option as trying and failing makes them feel so bad, they don't practice playing and it becomes a vicious circle. In DSs case he needs to repeat things more often than average before they stick which makes it even harder.
I would have to write an essay to explain all the things I tried and what worked or not but to a certain extent you are going to have to train her in play skills and find things that lower her anxiety ( exercise does help DS). One idea, I would find very simple games that you and your daughter and toddler can do together and then reward her for helping, keep the screen time as a reward. She may find real jobs better than pretend play, get her to tidy the tins in the cupboard alongside you as you cook rather get her to sit separately doing a puzzle, get her to build towers of bricks for her sibling to knock down then praise praise praise!

[SisterViktorine]

I think unless you can find a way to stand up to her though, she is going to be in complete control.

She's already learned that she can control you by even suggesting she might kick off. All toddlers do this, but it's not normal to still be doing it a lot at 5. She's still doing it because it really works for her.

She's ok with routines and rules at school. So maybe write her a timetable in which there is a 30minute slot when she has to play without your attention. Do something else during that time- hoovering would be good as it would cut out the noise of the whinging- and don't be drawn into the circus routine she will start to make you stop your task. Over time she will get bored of trying and failing to get your attention during that time- then you can gradually start increasing it.

[TheFlounder]

It sounds like you need some support with how to deal with a tantrum. If she knows they work then it's always going to be that way. At one point when my child was particularly driving me up the wall I put a podcast on using headphones. (Puts on tin hat). We were in the same room and I could still hear him but it helped a lot.

You could set up something for DD to do, and set a timer. If she spends the whole time having a tantrum then that's her loss. Put the activity away and move on to the next thing you need to do.

[JinkxMonsoon]

Youve had some weird responses OP! I can see lots of posters trying to make this into a "doesnt go to the park and watches tv" thing - there will be questions about obesity lurking in there too

Thanks. And ha! I've been fully expecting to have posters asking for DD's BMI For the record, she is not remotely obese although it's a particular worry of mine due to her crappy, limited diet. Thankfully, she eats so very little it balances out the fact she exists on processed crap and sugar.

(Sarcasm again).

You are correct in that she's simply used to constant adult attention. Up until fairly recently I hadn't considered that to be a particularly bad thing. But the fact she isn't very adaptable to being without adult attention is the thing I need to train out of her. For all I know, I just need to give it time. She's only been at school full time for two months, and prior to that only did 9 hours a week at preschool.

[lapetitesiren]

I've often observed parents making themselves so much part of a game that there is no game once they have removed themselves. Try to facilitate her playing alone when you are with her rather than actually joining in. (this is hard to explain). For example get toys talking to each other" hello Lego man, I'm the playmobile dog, shall we make some popcorn?" "oh I'm going to sit on the chair now" etc. It shows her how to play a game and you gradually let her take it over and carry on. Once her imagination is immersed she is more likely to continue to play. Also she may need to be near you and involved in what you are doing. For example put play kitchen in or very close to kitchen so she can cook alongside you . Or just let her help with tasks together ( if you chop veg she is the one who puts the peeling in a bowl ready to put in compost etc). Bring a toy next to where you are doing things with the baby so she doesn't feel alone. ( sometimes I put the older child to play in the playpen so the toddler can't break everything but she is close to you and them. Not many children would accept a closed door on the garden - can you use a stair gate to stop the toddler escaping. They often just need to feel next to you to be able to get on but you need to reduce the interaction of the play so she develops skills and confidence to amuse herself. Sorry about the ramble!

[Backingvocals]

Btw I can see why screaming and shouting happens around eating and potty training because you have to engage on some level with those things. But playing? You dont have to engage. Ignore or pretend to ignore even when you are boiling inside.

[Backingvocals]

That's at the heart of it then Jinkx. I can understand looking for a gentler solution to a tantrum but it's got you here which is not where you want to be.

Would it be an idea to start a new thread about the tantrums and tactics oh riding them out?. Because I think that's the issue you need to tackle first.

[JinkxMonsoon]

To be blunt, I think you are facilitating this behaviour from your DD because you are not prepared to ride a tantrum.

Ha! Yes. Guilty as charged. Like I said before, she's always been difficult and has turned all sorts of things into major long term psychological battles, primarily eating and toileting (should also mention at this point that she has many good qualities that aren't necessarily relevant to this discussion ) and yes, I'm not afraid to admit that I don't want her to have a tantrum because, equally, I don't want to be losing my shit of an evening with everyone screaming and crying.

I don't deal with her tantrums well. Especially when they're over stupid minor things and she ends up sobbing for Daddy (because Mummy is being mean) who won't be home for another two fucking hours, etc. She has serious tantrum stamina when she really puts her mind to it. So yes, I avoid triggering major tantrums at all costs because I have the foresight to know how it ends and it ain't pretty. So I'm not going to apologise for avoiding a serious row because it's unpleasant for everyone and not good for my mental health. I'd rather explore gentler and nicer ways of encouraging independent play than screaming and shouting.

And please no one jump on this statement as proof of my "weak parenting" and "lack of boundaries" She is, in the main, a very well behaved kid and the teacher commented on how good she is at following school rules and routines. She earned a "good behaviour" award last week. She's on the School Council. In Reception!