Small boys, rough play and being kept in at playtime...

[Pantone363]

Ok I want honest opinions (OP you are a twat and in the wrong are fine ).

I had a phone call after school today from DS teacher regarding an incident yesterday.

DS and some other children were playing tag (although more likely the grab each others coats swinging them round kind of tag). Some girls were playing too. DS caught one girl and pushed/pulled her to the ground (there's no evidence today she wasn't playing along doing the same thing to the boys). The girl then says that DS and 3 other boys kicked her whilst she was on the floor. DS admits pulling her to the ground but says he didn't kick her.

All 4 boys have lost their lunchtimes today and tomorrow and then breaktime for the next two days.

I have a few problems with this

1. She was playing along fine, if it was my DD I'd be telling her not to play tag with the boys if she can't suck it up if they get a bit rough.
   

1. DS swears blind he didn't kick her
   

1. Nobody else saw the kicking, theres no evidence other than this girls report to her mother.
   

1. Where were the playground staff?
   

1. I can't see that keeping 4 boisterous 5 yr old boys in all day is going to help anyone.
   

I've made DS write the girl a card saying sorry for pulling her over.

Am I being a job for thinking this is poorly handled and just point the finger at the rough naughty boys?

[NeoMaxiZoomDweebie]

Desert when it comes to a child saying it has been assaulted...hurt...kicked..it is the BEST rule of thumb not to immediately revert to "5 year olds get it wrong all the time." or "Oh 5 year olds are unreliable."

That is just a handy get out clause for those with ideas which are dated and wrong.

[cory]

The base line is, the school is setting rules about how much rough play they can tolerate. This is likely to be different from how much rough play you can tolerate in a home setting with only 2 or 3 children and a very high adult-child ratio. School rules are likely to be stricter. I'd let the school get on with tbh. They know how very easily these things can get out of hand in that setting. I would not get involved if I were the OP.

[pictish]

At the end of the day, the only people who think rough playing is fine in a school, are the parents of rough kids. Everyone else wishes they would piss off.

[NeoMaxiZoomDweebie]

Pictish I couldn't have put it better.

[Hullygully]

I am afraid pictish speaks truth

[MadeOfStarDust]

blunt but true pictish

[blueberryupsidedown]

Children (and parents) need to know the rules of the playground. Some schools have 'zero tolerence to playfighting' that include pushing, pulling coats, tripping, punching, etc. Other schools tolerate it within specific rules. Most schools will have a playground policy in place. If the children (and parents) know what the rules out then the reasons for being punished are clear and make sense. My son was in detention for three days for throwing a stone at another child, I was 100% behind the school's decision. But he did that because he was being called names and pushed around every single day by two older boys, and when that was discussed, the other boys also received detention. Discussion is the best policy, and knowing what the school's approach and behaviour policy is.

I know that I am fed up with rough play in my kids' playground, name calling, pushing punching etc at drop off in the morning. When parents are watching and doing nothing to stop it. But the school will not intervene because they only take over responsibility once the bell has gone. That's another issue alltogether.....

[MoominMammasHandbag]

Hmm lots of interesting points about girls having to put up with stuff and being accused of exaggerating.
Personally I feel quite fortunate to have a lot of faith in my DS's school. If he was punished for something like this I would definitely tell him to take it on the chin. And if my son complained that he hadn't kicked the girl I would have said "Well did you try and stop them ? Did you help her? 'Cos if you didn't you are just as much to blame."

[LadyInDisguise]

I agree with the OP there.
Same rules should apply to all the children on a school playground.

If the school accept rough play such as the one described by the OP, then the school should also accept that all children take the risk to be hurt playing like this, boys or girls.
That sort of play happens at my dcs school and ds just avoids playing that particular game as he finds it too brutal. If he was complaining about it to the teacher, no sanction would be taken at all. You know the old story of 'it's normal for boys to be rough with each other'... And he would be laughed at by the boys in his class.
But if a girl complains... then it's fair game to tell them to be more gentle? because she is ... a girl??

In the best world, that sort of games wouldn't be allowed on the playground.
As it isn't, then at least the same rules/attitudes should apply.

[LadyInDisguise]

I mean should apply to all the children.

Kicking of course should never be allowed.

[NeoMaxiZoomDweebie]

LadyinDisguise but they never SAID it was because she's a girl! They said it because she's a person and she got hurt. The OP is the ONLY person involved who has brought gender into it.

[LadyInDisguise]

I am not talking about the kicking there. I thought that was clear.

I have seen that happening at ds school. Boy get hurts on the playground (like when he came out of school limping because another boy had kicked him and pushed him during PE and the boy didn't get any punishment) but if a girl get hurts in similar circumstances then sanctions are taken....

From the OP, I read that 'rough play' is allowed but kicking isn't. If that boy hasn't kicked another child but was playing rough, then what else was he punished for? Why has no one intervened on the playground on the day (Best way to make a real impression on a 5yo rather than waiting the day after)? Why has the girl not gone to the teacher/playground supervisor?

Or is it more of a 'you were part of the group that created mayhem, therefore you will be punished too' which seems to be going on quite a bit at my ds school too. eg all the boys are punished for misbehaving (even if some aren't) whereas all the girls aren't punished (even if some of them are....)?

[LadyInDisguise]

And of course no one will ever SAY that. But actions talk louder than words and my experience from 2 good primary school is that this is exactly what is taught to our children at school.

[NeoMaxiZoomDweebie]

Lady you are complicating what was a simple issue. Some boys and a girl or girls were playing rough. It went too far and some boys kicked a child who had been pulled down. They got punished. The girls sex is irrelevant in this case.

The teacher never said "We don't hit girls" or anything. The boys were in trouble for the rough play which went too far.

[NancyOsbourne]

I agree with the poster who said it should raising a person not raising a son. Genders should not be stereotyped.

Also you keep saying he didn't kick her! How do you know? It's his word against hers - why is she the liar?

[chrisann]

I think there should be general play time guidelines: no play fighting,no tag games which pull children onto the ground etc... I have two boys aged 8 and 9 and they know their limits to what is acceptable behaviour in the play ground.If either two had been involved in this incident I would have expected a punishment from the school, even if my son had not kicked her, he should be punished for pulling her onto the ground.That is why play ground guidelines are a must as every child has different home life experiences.

[MoreBeta]

As the parent of two boys I dont agree with 'boys do rough and tumble play' and 'girls should suck it up'.

Sorry but no. In my experience, when boys do rough and tumble play they are pushing the boundary to see how far they can go. It is not acceptable. They know what they are doing and they really do mean to hurt someone.

We have a rule in our house, no hitting, grabbing, pushing, fighting even if it is play because someone always gets hurt. The teacher was right.

In fact, in one Prep school I know very well which is quite 'boy heavy' the sheer unchecked physicality of the environment is at such a pitch the Year 4 - 6 girls are effectively penned in a corner in the classroom at break time for fear of just beng pushed about or knocked over.

[LadyInDisguise]

Neo I was relating that to my experience of playground rules. I(t does happen and nothing from the OP is saying that it's not what is also happening at her ds school.

But the way the OP is written makes me think, that school do accept rough play between boys and do not punish them for that. I believe that either you don't accept any rough play at all or you do what the OP was saying, accept that girls just as much as boys can be hurt too (and not punished them for that)

Personally, I truly wish that the rules were much clearer and would not accept that sort of behaviour. As I said, my own ds struggles with it and I do believe it sends all the wrong signals.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

We have a rule in our house, no hitting, grabbing, pushing, fighting even if it is play because someone always gets hurt. The teacher was right.

Totally agree with this.

When I was in primary school (back in the 70's!) there was a boy in our class who was basically a thug - used to go round punching girls (hard) for no reason. We were all really scared of him - and none of us escaped his attentions. This was tolerated/ignored for years.

In the final year (Mr "D"s class) on the first day he said "there will be no hitting girls in my class. Any boy who hits a girl will have me to answer to." And as if by magic it never happened again. I think because Mr D was a strict, but really fun teacher, who was respected by us all.

Now I would correct to "no child will hit another child" obv - but this boy just needed to be told hitting would not be tolerated. Looking back I dread to think what this boy's home life was like for him to do this.

'Rough play' in the school playground, and expressions like 'boys will be boys,' 'girls shouldn't play if they're going to get hurt' and 'girls exaggerate' should all be consigned to the dim and distant past imo.

[NeoMaxiZoomDweebie]

Lady the OP says this about the rules regarding rough play

His teacher has again told DS that there is a complete blanket ban on any physical play even if he thinks the other child wants to play that kind of game

HOw is that not clear? How does that make you think the way the Op speaks makes it look like they do accept rough play?

[BashfulBunny]

Wow. So many agendas on this thread!

In the rational world it sounds more like this:
Children were playing push-tag (silly and too rough, but they were)
One child was pushed too roughly and probably got kicked accidentally while on the ground as the others didn't stop playing.

The OPs DS is not lying when he says he didn't kick her (he may not even have been aware if he did by mistake while running around).
The child on the ground isn't lying when she says she was kicked.
It's worth bearing in mind that it would be scary being on the ground with several other children running around you.

If there is no reason to think any of the children are liars then this is the most likely explanation. There is no reason to think this was anything other than carelessness. Am I the only one that has thought of this?!

They should all be told not to play so rough because people can get hurt - as demonstrated - and understand the importance of stopping and caring for anyone who is either accidentally hurt or frightened.

Listening to only the girl's side is just as wrong as listening to only the boy's. Being on the receiving end of an untrue accusation can be just as harmful (unfairly tarred as a bully, feeling like people always think you are to blame etc), as being on the receiving end of being bullied.

[Pantone363]

Children who like rough play are rough children...goady much?

DS is neither rough or a bully. He is a physical child. Some children don't like roughing around some do. There isn't a correct type . Your child may not like it but some children do! Not because they are rough, nasty bully boys in the making, but because they enjoy the physicality of it.

I'm genuinely amazed after reading this thread. My youngest DD loves rough play. My oldest doesn't. DD and DS LOVE rug wrestling (big circle rug and they have to wrestle the other person off the rug!). There's no malice involved, they often end up laughing. The last time I checked wrestling and boxing were Olympic sports, some people enjoy it!

I think a lot of people on this thread are coming from the view that their DC and nice and gentle and don't like it, therefore all the other kids who do are 'rough'.

Let me reiterate again. He didn't grab an unwilling child who was just walking around, she was playing the same pulling/pushing/running game they were!

[RainSunWind]

I think in this case that the school should be keeping a closer eye on games in the playground, and also, they should be speaking to the class as a whole about this issue. Everyone needs boundaries making clear (set by the school).

When I was at school, tag wasn't allowed, British Bulldog (more or less some sort of rugby line of tackle involving two clashing groups) was certainly not allowed. Of course children ran around, but anything that got.. giddy.. was spotted very quickly and discouraged. And that was back in the 70's (well before elf and safety).

[RainSunWind]

Pantone: I get what you're saying but the pushing/pulling "game" shouldn't have been going on in the first place!!! That's not tag, that's turned into something a lot more physical and with room for injury/getting out of hand. No way should your DS have pushed/pulled her to the ground - even if she was playing that game herself, "two wrongs don't make a right" as my mum was fond of saying. But I don't exactly blame your DS - the playground should have been monitored and this "game" broken up. Pushing/pulling is not a game unless possibly between siblings where the "rules" and how hard someone can go, are automatically understood. I think you have extended your own (reasonable in your own home) guage of rough and tumble to the school playground, but they are two totally different areas.

[pictish]

DS is neither rough or a bully. He is a physical child
Is that what you're calling it these days?

My kids run, jump, chase, skip, climb, race and leap. They swing, dance, march, spin, zoom and bounce. They are physical children too.

They don't grab, pull, shove, crush, barge or thump though. They are not rough.

As an asides, grabbing one another by the clothing should be one of the first things out the window.
My ds1 hated this being done to him more than anything else. It causes so many accidents. He had a 'physical' boy grab him by the back of the jumper in primary 1 (reception) then let go, and his face ended up ground into the tarmac. That was pretty nasty.

In my experience over 3 kids and 3 ordinary schools, the tough kids very rarely confine their behaviour to their own ilk.