Small boys, rough play and being kept in at playtime...

[Pantone363]

Ok I want honest opinions (OP you are a twat and in the wrong are fine ).

I had a phone call after school today from DS teacher regarding an incident yesterday.

DS and some other children were playing tag (although more likely the grab each others coats swinging them round kind of tag). Some girls were playing too. DS caught one girl and pushed/pulled her to the ground (there's no evidence today she wasn't playing along doing the same thing to the boys). The girl then says that DS and 3 other boys kicked her whilst she was on the floor. DS admits pulling her to the ground but says he didn't kick her.

All 4 boys have lost their lunchtimes today and tomorrow and then breaktime for the next two days.

I have a few problems with this

1. She was playing along fine, if it was my DD I'd be telling her not to play tag with the boys if she can't suck it up if they get a bit rough.
   

1. DS swears blind he didn't kick her
   

1. Nobody else saw the kicking, theres no evidence other than this girls report to her mother.
   

1. Where were the playground staff?
   

1. I can't see that keeping 4 boisterous 5 yr old boys in all day is going to help anyone.
   

I've made DS write the girl a card saying sorry for pulling her over.

Am I being a job for thinking this is poorly handled and just point the finger at the rough naughty boys?

[pictish]

pictish - why do you think that a participant in something which means someone is likely to get hurt is a 'victim'?

Um...because the OP's son pushed the girl to the ground and then the other boys laid into her with their feet? I'm pretty sure that isn't what she wanted to participate in.

[Secondme]

We don't know for sure they kicked her though.

[Secondme]

Don't mean to argue, but in dds school there ae a few girls that would (at that age) have told on the boys for something they didn't do to get them in trouble. Mainly exaggerating.

[desertgirl]

If they did, that is not on. However it isn't clear that they did, and it is not the kicking element that the discussions you were responding to related to.

[YoniSingWhenYoureWinning]

Girl joins in a game that involves playfighting. Fine.

The boys all then turn on the girl, drag her to the ground and start kicking her and the girl is being a whiny tattle-tattle tale for having a problem with it? For fuck's sake.

[pictish]

Doesn't matter.
The OP is perfectly fine with the part her son played, in pushing the girl to the ground. He likes rough play so it's all ok. He gets to. Boys will be boys, and various other tired, old fashioned bollocks that excuses him from any wrongdoing. And don't go crying to her if your daughter wants to play tag and he gets carried away.
It's rough play.
It's brilliant.

[MistyB]

This takes me back to my eldest DS's first years at school and horrific practices of swinging kids around by their hoods and dragging them along the ground. DS's class had been told by his teachers to ask kids to stop and find an adult (difficult while being dragged on the ground) and they had also been told they could not lash out in return even to protect themselves. We quickly bought a coat without a hood!!!

[desertgirl]

Yonising, if that is what happened, nobody is saying that. What we are talking about is the story OP's DS has given - that there was no kicking. None of us are in a position to know which story is more plausible as we don't know the participants, didn't see how they gave their evidence, etc, so we are going by the OP's story as that is all we have to go on. Unless you contend that 5 year old gilrs never either perceive the world in unusual ways or report things that didn't actually happen (just like 5 year old boys)

[desertgirl]

Pictish it has sod all to do with them being boys and everything to do with it being that sort of play. If you play knocking-people-over games, you are likely to get hurt (just like if you take up wrestling or other such strange pursuits). If you do get hurt (boy or girl) you don't ge much sympathy as that is what you signed up for when you joined in.

And as such games are not allowed at school, they should all have been reprimanded, not just the ones with penises

[Secondme]

I agree, desertgirl, completely.

[pictish]

desertgirl - if your daughter came home and told you that had happened...what would you do? You would believe her wouldn't you?

Anyway - semantics semantics. The OP's lad has confessed his part. I don't care what the other boys did or did not do. I am addressing the point that the OP has a very casual attitude to her son's behaviour in relation to other kids.

It's not like I don't see, or 'get' what she is conveying. I just don't agree. If anyone is getting hurt or humiliated, the game is too rough. That's the bottom line. And that's not hard to work out.

[desertgirl]

It would depend how she said it, tbh. I don't think she lies as such apart from the usual 'it wasn't me' sort of thing, but I do think her perception of reality isn't always 'my' reality.

A game with willing participants which is too rough is not the same thing as bullying, though, is it? All participants need to learn how to not let it get out of hand (or need to be reminded not to play it, or whatever)n not just the ones who didn't get hurt.

[pictish]

Especially in a school setting.

[desertgirl]

.... But then I riot about with my kids, and while it's fun, part of it is also them learning how to eg climb all over me without hurting me, and learning that to be fun, even going wild has to be done with control.

[pictish]

Absolutely. I'm not going down the bullying road anyway. I'm saying the behaviour needs toned down. The OP said earlier that she has already been spoken to regarding her son's rough play.

I don't think he's a bad boy OR a bully. I believe the OP when she says this is his particular enjoyment and no malice intended. I understand that she thinks kids should be aware of the rules of rough play before joining in, and that to snivel about getting hurt thereafter is a bit rich...

It's wrong though. In a school setting, and even in a sibling situation, it's about manners and respect, because those children do not choose to be around your child...they have to be. So therefore the ethos can only be one of kindness and respect.
The rough players must come down. If we let them set the bar it would be fucking chaos.

[Pantone363]

Wow this moved on quite a bit!

I think a definition of rough play would be helpful here. There is no hitting/punching/kicking allowed. I'm talking about the rolling around wrestling on the floor, trying to get on top of each other stuff. Maybe it's a family thing? I know some friends who don't allow any rough play but we always have and even now ill get down and wrestle with DS and DDs on the bed or floor. In fact I'm sure there is a paragraph in Raising Boys about this being a healthy practise for children, allowing them to realise when enough is enough and what is too rough.

She did join in the game knowing the rules, she was happy to pull DS and the other boys over when it was her turn to catch them. She stands a good head taller than DS so this really isn't a bully boy situation.

Anyway DS gave her the card and she told the teacher he was talking to her (apparently they've been told to leave her alone).

[Sheshelob]

I have never liked the sound of Raising Boys. I'm raising a person.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

Don't mean to argue, but in dds school there ae a few girls that would (at that age) have told on the boys for something they didn't do to get them in trouble. Mainly exaggerating.

This is where it all starts, though, isn't it? Girls and women are accused of 'exaggerating' and 'making things up.' Even at this tender age, boys hurting girls is belittled, and disbelieved.

And as they become older... girls have already learned that society excuses boys and men that hurt them - physically and sexually. This is a huge problem, and it needs to be tackled at an early age.

[NeoMaxiZoomDweebie]

That's right Sabrina. On the one hand they're encouraged to be quiet and "nice" and to wear impractical clothing and NOT to play rough and on the other they're told they must be lying when anyone else hurts them.

On MN I see regular posts where people say "Oh yes but little girls can be sly...and nasty"

It's sickening.

[YoniSingWhenYoureWinning]

On MN I see regular posts where people say "Oh yes but little girls can be sly...and nasty"

Yes. This.

[YoniSingWhenYoureWinning]

OP, the girl's mother probably told her to tell the teacher if one of the bullies spoke to her. Yes, I said bullies.

[desertgirl]

Is it stereotyping any less to see the girl as a 'victim' who must be believed and the boys as nasty bullies?

Five year olds' versions of events are not always reliable. Whether or not they are female. Not because they are 'sly' or 'nasty' but because they are five.

[RubyOnRails]

If it were your daughter, you'd have been on here pronto having a right old moan over being told "boys will be boys" etc. AND rightly so.

They were right to be punished, not sure why you're being so defensive. Let it go and be grateful you have a school that punishes this sort of behaviour..one day you might benefit from this approach.

[RubyOnRails]

I mean if you son were ever in that girls situation....you can take comfort that it would not go unchallenged, was not criticising your parenting techniques!

[Oblomov]

I was very ignorant before ds1 started reception. How I wish I had known. He, and many of the groups of boys, got into trouble for rough play.
Ds2 also seems to like rough. He, and ds1 , bouncing around on trampoline, jumping on eachother, chasing eachother around. Often ends in tears.
I repeatedly say no rough play. I have told them both, that this will not be tolerated, when ds2 starts reception. And I have even put some onus onto ds1, that he will get his brother into trouble, at school, if this is not dealt with now.