HI
I'm not a big church-goer, as a rule, but recently I have reverted to my Catholic roots for a variety of reasons....anyway, point being, my 3 y/o DD were actuallly BOUNCED out of church tonight because of dd's behaviour. I guess she is is not blame: I hardly ever take her, but thought that this service might be interesting for her, as it is at the big city cathedral, and involves some lovely music and ritual.
Everything was okay at first: the choir began, she ballet-danced in the aisles ad charmed everyone....then became completely unruly: was running around all over the place, shouting, demanding that she have a 'seat of her own'. Ran up to a grotto dedicated to the Virgin and opened gate, I intervened and picked her up and took her back to her seat, and as I did so, she grabbed at my top and exposed my bra to practically whole congretation!
About ten mins after this I took her into the lobby. A male parishioner emerged and closed the church doors, and let me know that my dd was 'spoiling the mass for 300 people'. I thought, well, okay, at least I can stand outside and hear the singing and liturgy, and go in for communion. But dd was VERY cross at being shut out of mass: it was like some sort of metaphor for excommunication - she kept shouting: 'I don't WANT to be left out in the dark! I want to go inside again! I PROMISE I"ll be quiet!' etc, etc.
Grumpy male parishioner re-emerged (by this time I had made a 'tent' for myself and dd under blanket, and was trying to soothe her) and demanded to know 'what was going on' and 'why can't you control your child?"
I sort of lost it at this point and said, excuse me, why can't you control yourself? This is a Catholic church and one would imagine children are welcome...
Mr Grumpy more or less intimated that I ought to leave the premises altogether. I find it hard to believe that a bit of toddler grizzling could permeate ancient stone walls and solid wooden door of church. There were some other parents outside with toddlers, and they couldn't believe the way I was being talked to. I suspect my fairly obvious single mum status may have had something to do with it.
Made myself loook additionally ridiculous by walking off into the night and shouting at grumpy man that I would 'write to local Catholic newspaper' about his fascist attitude. And then (cringe! cringe!) 'I said to him: 'by the way, my name is DOCTOR Maslen' (this last because I graduated with my PhD a few weeks ago....this is the first time I have ever invoked the Dr thing in such a pompous and ridiculous way, and I feel really embarrassed). I felt he was deeming me to be shabby and inferior, a kind of blow-in, probably because of my clothes and evident lack of husband. I may have been a trifle paranoid.But even if I was a heoin addict mum (which I sort of look like at the moment, being rather thin and poor-looking), surely such draconian attitudes are not in the spririt of Christianity?
Anyway, dd continued to wail dismally all the way back to car, clearly feeeling that she was responsible, so I thought stuff it, I'll go back and have communion at least. I was allowed back into church for two seconds in order to get communion.
It was so sad because in her own way dd was really enjoying ceremony. Yes, Holy Thursday is a very solemn mass, but dd was dancing to the music, pretending to say prayers, was really interested in choir and the old building.
I remember when I was at Catholic school as a kid you could hardly even hear the priest talk over the wailing and antics of bored toddlers. Things seem to have changed.
I suppose at bottom of my heart though is concern for dd's unruliness. She will NOT listen to what I say, will not be reasoned with. I've tried various sorts of discipline, even bottom smacking (which I've now dropped). I am a single mother (since dd was 2) and a fairly unconventional person myself, so I can't help but have a bit of a twinkle in my eye when she violates the rules and regulations. But she is becoming known as a 'problem child' among friends and family. Won't share toys, pushes and shoves younger kids (gets on well with older ones though), has tantrums all the time, demands attention, won't let me talk to other adults if she is in the room (Ie 'mummy stop TALKING!" ) Toilet training has become a big battle and recently, on Dr's advice, I have decided to simply put her in pants, not pressure her and let her have accidents so she realises that there's a need for her to learn. Lots of cleaning up for me, though, and I'm run off my feet with work right now.
Guess there is not much routine in our lives: I managed to get a good teaching job at local uni but it doesn't start until end of July, and until then I am on single mum benefit (ex doesn't pay regular child support ...tells me to 'get a job'. I would do, if it wasn't so pointless....if I worked in a laundromat or whatever I'd have dd in daycare constantly and wouldn't have time to write my course for my uni gig). We are so poor right now, and as young as she is, I think she really feels it.
We are also stuck in a shite flat, no-where much to play: I have so much reading to do that a lot of the time DD is forced to watch TV/DVDs/videos. In fact she has become sick of TV: turns it off and plays rather sad little games all by herself. Is particularly fond of playing 'Katy and Cristian' (my best friend Katy is a mum of two with hubbie and 'normal' life).
DD is the loveliest child you could ever meet, inherently, and I'm sure when she is older she will be a really sweet person. But right now she's in the throes of full-on toddler egotism and embarrassing scenes occur on a daily basis in shops etc.
People seem to think she's out of control. By my standards, she's not really, but perhaps my standards are rather low?
And by the way, I'm not a religious nut or anything. I have tried to impart the positive aspects of my own Catholic upbringing without dwelling on scary or silly stuff. It is important to me that she has some intimation of there being beauty and meaning in life beyond the obvious.
Suggestions from Mums of famously unruly (and un-toilet-trainable_ tots would be appreciated.
Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.
Behaviour/development
Holy Thursday Horror Story (very long)
Caththerese1973 · 13/04/2006 17:10
I remember going to confession when I was was a kid and making up things because I felt I didn't have enough to confess 
DC you really do have issues. Perhaps psychotherapy would help?
Caththerese it must be exhausting for you at the moment - it is impossible for you to think far beyond the now but hopefully this situation will get better, especially when your dd goes to school.
As far as church goes, my dad is a priest [anglican] and he has always accepted children and their behaviour as part and parcel of the life of the church. I would like to go to church with my boisterous toddler, but i am frightened of the reactions of some other people if he screams and runs around, so will probably wait until he's older. A family service with a sunday school is your best bet. Best of luck and lots of sympathy and support for what you're going thru right now. Isn't there a legal way of getting your ex to pay child support? 
We were regular churchgoers when DD was born and continued to take her with us. Once she was walking she wouldn't sit still and one week we were asked to take her out (she wasn't making a noise, just running up and down near the back of the church) because "the old ladies had complained". I was really upset and we never went back to that church again- we'd been regulars there for over 3 years by that time and thought we were well liked.
We found another church where children were welcome and packed lost of toys that didn't make a noise. At a particularly quiet part of the sermon she found a knitted football in the bag, kicked it hard and yelled "RAAAAYYYYY!!!!!!" 
I could have died- we were in the front row. The priest caught my eye and indicated it was OK. She then went up and stood next to him during the sermon. He carried on talking, saying "me and X are taking the service". Afterwards he came straight over to us, said children were part of things and there was no need for us to worry. Other parishioners said the same. They were so welcoming we could have cried.
We continued to go to that church every week through 2 changes of priest and another 3 kids until DD started secondary school and had to go Saturdays, so it didn't seem fair to make them go out Sunday as well. It makes all the difference.
just had a quick look back at this thread and im a bit concerned that dc has hijacked it! i have heard about trolls but i hadnt seen it before..im sure thats what was meant by 'idiots who rant too much'
I can see your point monkey - good behaviour in church (and more importantly IMO, a proper understanding of why we are all there)comes with repeated exposure to worship.
But blu is also right to say that for most children a lot of traditional worship in the C of E and RC churches in Britain can be deeply child-unfriendly, often not intentionally, but its effect is to put parents and other worshippers at loggerheads.
We used to attend a church well known for its polished anglo-Cath liturgy, liberal welcome for divorced/gay worshippers and top notch sung masses. Because the church hall was rented out to make this glorious extremism financially viable, there was nowhere suitable for either babes or Sunday School to meet. Mass was regularly nearly an hour and a half long and it was just 15 mins too long for almost ALL the children in the congregation, with the result of a large exodus right after communion. Add to that tedious sermons but a highly sought after C of E school and you had a church packed with bored children and, mostly, lip-service parents :(
We finally switched to a different church with no school attached, dreadful music, mish-mash liturgy BUT sound priests, brilliant Sunday school, only a sprinkling of children but all from properly committed families - and the same ds who disliked the old church intensely now loves church and actively looks forward to Sunday morning. He had been to church most Sundays since birth and I think proves the point that regularity is not enough - the worship has to be right too. I may inwardly wail as the wonky chords of the Peruvian Gloria tinkle from our aged piano, but he knows all the words and why we are singing it 
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