How can I break a naming tradition?

[MollieS]

Hi everyone, can anybody help me with a predicament?...

My husband is Greek, though has lived in England for the past 15 years, where we now live together. We are trying for a baby and I'm feeling such anticipation over choosing a name - like anybody, naming my first child has been something I've thought about since I was little. However, there's a catch.

Traditionally, little Greeks are named after the grandparents on their father's side, a custom which seems to be nation-wide and not limited to how observant/family orientated you are. So, my husband's (non English speaking) parents expect our future son or daughter to be named after them. The trouble is that their names - Vasilios and Dorothea- seem very old-fashioned to me (I hope this doesn't offend anyone). I can't imagine calling my child either of these names, nor do I feel that these names would fit well into an English school and can't help but worry that my child would be teased by other children. The most I would be comfortable with is to use them as middle names.

My husband is sympathetic though currently as confused as I am over the situation. He feels a sense of obligation to his parents (made worse by the fact that he has chosen to settle in a country which is familiar to him but alien to them and also by the fact that I am not Greek, something they've never stated as being a problem but equally, something they had not anticipated). He says he could live with either of their names, but also likes other (Greek sounding) names that we've discussed that I also like and are similar to English names (Alexandra, Sophia etc).

Has anybody else been in a similar situation? I'd appreciate any advice - from Greek mums/partners or otherwise!

[bruffin]

I know of a Hector, his brother is Casper. Brave names but not bad.

[allydennis]

Dottie short for Dorathea is beautiful too!!

[MollieS]

Thanks everyone for your lively conversation. It is great to hear so many different views and stories from you all. Also nice to hear that so many people seem to like the name Dorothea...Even if it only becomes a middle name! Hearing such resoundingly positive reinforcement from you modern mums has got me seeing it in a different light.

The problem with bestowing a Greek name and an English name is that many, many names taken for granted in England (Anthony, Alexandra, Christopher, George, Zoe to name just a few) are in fact of Greek origin. As I've said before, I love Leo (which could be the Greek Leonidas) and Alexa...Neither really solve the problem as Greeks consider these names as normal and 'Greek' as we do 'English'

Just found out that DH's parents are coming over for 10 days quite soon. I'm going to get him to broach it with them then (my Greek isn't fluent enough yet, getting there!).

Does anyone like the name Hector? Or is that just mean?

[5DollarShake]

This tradition is not patriarchal per se - after all, if it is a girl, she would be named for her grandmother.

As has already been mentioned, some cultures are more family orientated (if not 'bound' by tradition) than others. It is very easy for people who marry someone from their own country to thrown their hands up in disgust at such a situation. But when you are married to someone from another culture (or even just another country with a similar culture), there will inevitably be different ways of doing things and compromise is the order of the day. Can't quite believe that needs spelling out, but there you go...

Not one person contributing to this thread has suggested the OP just roll over and accept it. Everyone is throwing suggestions into the ring as to how to work both Greek and English traditions into the child's name. What is wrong with that?

And of course, one option is to ride roughshod over the PILs wishes - but only the most contrary bugger would think that was really a long-term solution. Likewise, if the PILs honestly think their wishes override the parents, then they are being unreasonable.

[Italiangreyhound]

MollieS Congratulations on this forthcoming joy, I do hope all these naming concerns do not spoil it for you.

Although I sympathise with past traditions I really feel (personally) that you must chose with your DH what name(s) you will give your child. If together you are happy to include Greek family names or Greek names or English family names or English names, I would do so. As someone stated I would say that there is an English name and a Greek name. If you plan to live in an English speaking country it does seem logical that the name that will be more familiar in that place will be English sounding (and vice versa would apply).

I have several friends who are married to people from places with other languages /or live in places where other languages are spoken. They have chosen names which are suitable in both languages. By being encouraged to pick a specific name from one culture you are not being given this option and that does not seem fair to your little one, who may face years of having to spell/pronounce their name in the country they live in.

In terms of Christening, we chose to have our DD dedicated at the church we attend and we hope she will choose to be baptised for herself when she is older. We thought long and hard and prayed about this and we actually both ended up changing position! Initially, I wanted dedication, DH wanted baptism, then we switched! In the end we chose dedication so she can choose for herself but we will bring her up in a Christian home. It is a good idea to think about what you feel is right for you as a family.

All the best, apologies for long post!

[ravenAK]

Oi iklboo. My ds IS Isambard. What's wrong with it eh? .

OK, it's only his middle name really...

Agree that Dorothea's lovely - it's my mum & my grandma's name & I'd rather like to have it myself. Would've used it for one of the dds but mum hates it, especially as it was her mum's name too & she was the youngest. She always felt she didn't quite rate anyone bothering to think of a name for her.

If you like the names, I think I'd go with them. If not, use as middle names? Or alternatively, where I live it's v common to have an 'official' name (first on birth cert) but also a 'known as' name - eg. John David Smith, called after grandad John Smith but universally known as David.

Could you try that?

[mathanxiety]

How about Basil or Theodora? (Although I love Vasilios/Vasily)

This is an Irish custom too, though dying out fast. The second child would be called after the mother's parents, 3rd and 4th etc., children after whoever got left out the other times until no more obligations were left, at which point the proud parents would be left to their own devices. An incentive to have a huge Irish family?

I don't see this kind of system as patriarchal. It's grandparent/family-orientated rather than just patriarchal. Some cultures place more importance on the idea of family heritage than others do.

[Spidermama]

Sorry to sound intolerant but the pressure to conform to the imposition of this ancient and frankly primitive patriarchal system would gall me no end.

I value my individual freedom far too much. I'm proud that it's protected in this country and threads like these make me thankful all over again and remind me not to take my freedom for granted.

[5DollarShake]

"That may well be how things are done in Greek culture, but you are not Greek and your children will not be Greek.

Put it simply to them. The Greek way of doing things doesn't trump the English way of doing things."

What do you mean - the children will be half Greek?

Plus, on the flip side, why should the English way of doing things trump the Greek way?

Surely there is some middle ground, which is what most posters to this thread seem to be advocating.

And honestly - if my DH said 'ha ha ha no' to a tradition in my family, I'd think he was an unreasonable twunt. I wouldn't expect him to just fold and agree - but equally I wouldn't expect him to veto without a moment's consideration. What an odd way to work.

[Tanga]

My (Spanish) family tradition is to name ALL girls Maria, but use their middle name or both names linked to distinguish between them. This continued even when my family came to England and thus my first name is Maria. I love the link to my Spanish heritage, it is very important to me, but the whole being called by my middle name thing, and all the explanations that went with it, right through school, job interviews, any damn thing, is a complete PITA.

My DD is not called Maria (although my brother's DD is)and no fall-outs resulted - but I would say that had I wanted to continue the tradition, or had been considering it, I would not have been impressed if my DH had said 'HA HA HA no' TBH. Just a bit disrespectful?

The compromise suggestions are lovely.

[MollieS]

Despite patriarchal connotations, I still feel strongly that half of my child's heritage will be Greek and I would like him or her to feel proud of that and to be able to engage with it, linguistically, culturally and through experience etc despite being based in England. It is negotiating the the well meaning expectations of others when strong opinions and desires clash within this that makes striking the balance difficult as it must be for other 'multicultural' families. Sometimes being an in law/wife/mother in these set ups is more like working for the UN!

Intergalactic - Thank you, yes. My husband has often jovially talked of 'little Bill' when talking about a potential future son called Vasilios. Billy is quite sweet but I just can't get over personal prejudices!

I like Leo best! So glad that we have 9+ months to think about all of this!

[Intergalactic]

I don't have anything to add on the should you/shouldn't you name after the grandparents debate, but thought you might be interested to know that I know a Vasilios who shortens it to Bill. He's an adult, but Billy would also work for a baby/little boy?

[Spidermama]

Patriarchal shite!

[Spidermama]

I like the response of ninedragons best of all.

[bruffin]

"That may well be how things are done in Greek culture, but you are not Greek and your children will not be Greek."

Part of their culture will be greek! I have very little to do with any of my greek relatives now but it is still half my heritage and a quarter of my children's heritage.

[Iklboo]

DH's granparents on his dad's side tried this - 'you've got to give him one of the family names as a middle name, either your grandad or your dad. It's only right'

Oh dear. Fortunately DH is of the same mind as me and we gently told them that, as he was OUR son, we'd call him what we liked.

Then wound them up for most of the pregnancy by saying we were going to call DS 'Isambard'

[ninedragons]

You're a more tactful woman than me - my response to anyone expecting me to name my child after them as a matter of course would have been (and I quote) "HA! HA! HA! No."

That may well be how things are done in Greek culture, but you are not Greek and your children will not be Greek.

Put it simply to them. The Greek way of doing things doesn't trump the English way of doing things. And then name your child whatever you want. It really is your prerogative and you will resent them forever if you are forced to give your child a name you dislike.

[CuppaTeaJanice]

Don't call it a middle name, as that makes it sound less important. Call it his/her Greek name.

My friends did this with their son. He has his first name, which my friends chose, and then he has his Chinese name to honour that side of the family. Both equally important, although nobody can ever remember what his Chinese name is!!!

[MollieS]

Regarding the naming tradition, in Greek culture, it is the first son's children that should be named after the grandparents. The first boy is named after his father's father and the first girl is named after her father's mother. That way if you have 2 children of the same sex then only the first is named for his/her grandfather/mother and the same. In turn, the first of those two (male) children to have children themselves must name their child after the subsequent generation of grandparents. In the case of girls, her children will be named after her husband's parents.

Since dh is the only boy out of his siblings, we have the predicament!

Phew! Hope that makes sense!

[bruffin]

I think it's only the first child that is named after the grandparents.

I was christened Greek Orthodox, my mum was CofE. The Greek orthodox church was a quite a journey away so my nan used to take us only occassionally, but we never really understood it and in my later life I have been more drawn to Cof E than anything else.

[LoveJules3]

EightiesChick, Greek culture dictates that the eldest child of both sexes be named after their grandparents: Male to father's father, Female to mother's mother, or at least that's how my Greek-Cypriot friends explained it to me! However they named their first and only child Louisa after Father's dad Louis. Went down fine with all involved! Any subsequent children can be named whatever you like.

[EightiesChick]

Christening - I would say go along with this, personally. The child will make their own mind up anyway when they're older so all it has to represent, if you're not minded that way, is a ceremony to celebrate their naming with your loved ones. It is just one day, which makes a concession more tolerable than one that'll affect their lives longer-term.

[EightiesChick]

Sounds like it would be much easier if you had a daughter (not that you can do anything about that! ) as Dorothea is lovely, shortens nicely to Thea and works across the two cultures. Vassilios is trickier but Leo would be nice.

If you went the route of using the middle name day to day, would the ILs be offended later when they realise that little Vassilios isn't actually called that by anyone other than them? Or would it be OK because the tradition has been observed even if the spirit of it isn't being applied? Just asking because in that case, you might as well face the music and give them your own choice of name as first name. If they would be fine with Vassilios actually being called Gordon (for instance )at school and so on, then it makes the giving in option a bit more appealing.

What happens (sorry, no knowledge of Greek culture) if you have a second child of the same gender and have already done this? Do they have to be Dorothea I and Dorothea II or what??

[SE13Mummy]

re: the christening, personally I think there's no point in having a child christened if it's not part of what you believe in/want for your child. I have friends who've held naming ceremonies as a way of formally marking a child's birth and have been to many a thanksgiving service at church for babies whose parents would prefer them to make up their own minds in the future but wanted their child to be formally welcomed into the church family.

You need to do what you and your partner believe is right for your child within your family.

[Spidermama]

I'd tell him in England you are free to call the baby exactly what you like and are no hidebound by these traditions which are thrust upon people in other countries.

Job done.