racism, judgement on 'ethnic' names?

[missytequila]

While going through the great name debate for my daughter due in a few weeks, I have had a few people say that with a 'difficult to pronounce' african surname... that we MUST have a first name that is 'english/european' or else risk her being discriminated against.

Would love to know what mumsnetters think... I am mixed european descent, hubby is west african. Is judgement still passed these days on names?

For example is Alice Kweli far better than Afia Kweli?

Would like honesty, am not offended either way, in fact we like a handful of both african and european names...just wondering what you thought....

[LadyBlaBlah]

some easy reading on the subject

[PotPourri]

Is there any middle ground - an african name that is quite popular here, so not going to cause problems? Or a british-y name that is used in Africa?

Personally I would ignore what people say and go with what you want to call your baby. And an african name with african surname sounds fine to me. At the most, you might want to consider if it can be shortened to something that sounds more neutral

[missytequila]

slightlystressed-- Italian names are still european, continental and assumed to be 'white'

although its a disgusting thought to me...
I don't think it is the same discrimination as those with asian or african names..

i do appreciate the go for it attitude and yes there are many successful people with foreign names, hopefully my darling daughter will be another one of them

just don't know what to do... don't want to bow to racism, yet dont want to make her life more difficult...

what a debate!

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Seestah! Afia (if you're thinking of that) is gorgeous! What does it mean, and which part of W Africa is it from?

I am of W African descent, DH is white British. We went for a Jewish first name (because we loved it) for DS, followed by his grandfathers' names, so one of his middle names is African.

If we have a boy next time around we'll give him a W African name which is easy for Brits to pronounce and read.

IME some British people can be rather lazy when it comes to making an effort for names which they don't know. Lots aren't, but some are. IMO that's not a reason not to give a name which you love.

So I would go with a name which you adore AND which can be easily pronounced by all sides of the family. I hope that's not a tall order!

[Takver]

Could you not just choose the name you like best - she can always choose to adopt an anglicised shortening/nickname if she wants to when older, even if she only uses it for some purposes.

And I agree that it is horrific that people still have to do this in 2010 - my great grandfather anglicised his surname (from the Italian) in the 1920s for just the same reason, but you would have thought that things would have changed by now

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Oh, and don't be swayed too much by the statistics - the most interesting information, I think, comes from individual stories. Regardless of one's name/ background, people still make of their lives what they will. You should never think that your choice of name will determine your child's future.

Examples that spring to mind immediately: Barack (surname sounds like 'Osama' ), Condoleeza, Brix (what's her surname - the charismatic fashion woman from How To Look Good Naked), Gok. They all have unusual/ ethnic names and yet are successful in their chosen areas - even politics hasn't barred the first two. And what about Hilary Benn?

Besides, if your daughter chooses to work in a media/ 'creative' area, an unusual name will be perfect!

[mrsruffallo]

I don't think it's racism as much as people feel uncomfortable if they find a name hard to pronounce

[SE13Mummy]

I teach in London and have encountered loads of children with African surnames and first names along with loads who have African surnames with 'more European' first names.... in a multi-cultural area I don't think that your child will come up against any prejudice, certainly not as a child as the schools are full of names from all over the world. I've taught Damilolas who went by Dami and others who preferred Lola, an Oyinkonsola who liked Oyin, one who used Sola (pronounced Sholla and another who called herself Victoria.

The only thing I'd steer clear of is choosing a name that sounds like a body part when pronounced by an English-speaking person.... I've taught children with names pronounced Anus and Nipple .

[ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight]

haha I knew an Anjob! he doesn't go by that tho!

[ChynaDoll2006]

Why don't you do what a lot of Ghanaians and other Africans I know do and have an African and European name. Choose whichever one you want for the first name, and then use them interchangeably. Then they can use whichever one is more beneficial to the situation.

[Slambang]

mrsrufallo - so is it not racism that 2 identical CVs one with a 'white' name and the other with a 'black' name get different rates of job outcomes?

"American research findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_9_20/ai_104521293/"

[redcrane]

I haven't read the whole thread, but just see the bit about CVs.

There is the same stuff about job outcomes when sending identical CVs, but changing names from "victoria" (viewed more favourably) to "vicky" (viewed less favourably)

[mrsruffallo]

I didn't realise the poster lived in the US

[Blu]

"but if you've got a foreign surname sure it doesn't make a blind bit of difference whether it's a "British" first name or not - if they're going to discriminate on names the surname will be a give away even if you have a Henry George James Imbayago?"

The research I read DID find that a western first name and an African, Asian or Arabic surname on a CV gained more interviews than one with both names being A, A or A, because, the researchers surmised, one western name suggested a degree of mixed-ness, assimiliation and or integration, which employers found 're-assuring'.

Whether you wish to pander to this...well, your choice. Wouldn't it be marvellous if, rather than parents fitting in with the depressing conclusions (for entirely understandable reasons), this research was used instead to challenge this nonsense so that it is no longer a problem when Afia Kweli grows up ansubmits her first CV.

[happysmiley]

I saw the same research as you Blu. It's very depressing, isn't it.

But as Speedy says, personal experience doesn't always tie in with the stats.

I was born with an Indian surname and given a Hindu first name. In my 20s that combination didn't once stop me getting interviews for jobs. (People with my surname are sadly stereotyped as being quite good in my chosen occupation, so it probably worked in my favour!)

Fast forward to my 30s. I'm now married and have taken my English husband's English surname. Should work in my favour according to the research but what a pain in the arse it's been. First I lost the positive connotations of maiden name. And then secondly any employer just has to put together my DoB and my mixed name, and concludes married woman in her 30s, pregnancy risk. The last time I looked for a job, I had a nightmare, which just never happened before. To be fair my CV is just as good as it ever was so I do struggle to explain the number of knock backs.

So I think it can work for you or against you depending on the circumstances.

[meadowlarks]

You're assuming that the OP's child will have an office job, and that based on the experiences of some others, they will have difficulty because of their name. The truth is we cannot possibly know, so I say give your child the name you want, and let them develop into an individual as best you can. A personality is far more valuable to any employer than the pronunciation of a name, or anyone else, for that matter.

[bellissima]

I think Afia is lovely and I think the fact that the spelling/pronunciation is clear just makes life a bit easier. The latter I hope has nothing to do with racism (other than a possible 'slur' that the English might be bad spellers!) but my own DC2 has a Flemish name that is very unusual here and the fact that the spelling is 'obvious' helps just eg when joining the new swimming class, seeing the receptionist at the dentist etc - 'office life' is some way off!

[Blu]

I don't think any of this implies an office job a all! CV / job application - most have your name on them!

HapySmiley - that's interesting..it's an insidious business, isn' it?

[OtterInaSkoda]

Sorry - not read whole thread. But these studies showing discrimination against people with non-European sounding names are recent. By all means use them to inform your decision (although I think that would be so sad) but baby Missy won't be applying for jobs until, perhaps, 2020! If attitudes haven't changed, perhaps recruitment methods might. We just don't know.

[MintyMoo]

I have a Welsh name, I like my name but people are so rubbish at pronouncing it even though it has only two syllables and the first syllable is pronounced the exact same way as the common word it spells out. I hate the way my colleagues point at me and call me 'you' or say 'I'm going to ask point at me to do it'. I also hated it that my name was always pronounced incorrectly at prize giving and at graduation, I also hate the funny looks people give me when I say what I'm called. FYI my name is Lowri. Low as in the opposite of high and then ree as in tree. It's really not difficult but people insist on pronouncing the 'low' part to rhyme with 'cow' as in the painter, Lowry. Even when I correct them. Some even have the cheek to say 'Lowry/Lowri - same difference'. No, because one is my name and the other is not!

My parents both thought my name would be easy to pronounce when they chose it but for some reason I get called lots of different names such as Chloe, Lorrie, Laurie and Laura. I've also been called Hilary and Larry.

Pick the name you want (I think Afia is lovely) but I'd definitely consider giving an english/european middle name as well, I really wish my parents had given me a middle name so that I would have had the option to use it instead.

[ToccataAndFudge]

Minty - I have people asking how to pronounce my first name, or getting it wrong

it's Gwen.....

and people used to ask how to spell my maiden name as well - which is ridiculously easy to spell.

Interestingly DS2 is the one whose name is most often spelled correctly DS1 and 2 often get things with their names mispelled (through people guessing as they've only heard it said

DS2 is Tongai (prnounced Ton-guy

DS1 is Tafara, and DS3 Takunda (both prnounced as you read them) - go figure.

[Rockdoctor]

I haven't read the whole thread but the CV discrimination issue in interesting and very real - DH (in his late-40s and applying for fairly senior management-type jobs) has a Southern European name and has been advised to include a photo on his CV. The implication was that his gender was ambiguous but I wonder if it's gender or race they're worried about - truly shocking!

I think Afia is a lovely name and we stuck with his European heritage when choosing names for our DD.

[SerenityNowakaBleh]

There are other considerations as well - what if the DC decides to go back to it's not British/European parents' home country? Also, this is assuming that all recruiters in 20 odd years time when the OP's DD is applying for jobs are going to be white brits/europeans.

[MaisietheMorningsideCat]

I work for the NHS, and all names, DOB and date of education etc (in short, anything that could be used to discriminate) are blanked out on application forms when you are shortlisting. It's only when you call people for interview do you see any personal details - perhaps private industry may catch up in that respect at some point.

[ToccataAndFudge]

"There are other considerations as well - what if the DC decides to go back to it's not British/European parents' home country? "

and ermmmm what??