racism, judgement on 'ethnic' names?

[missytequila]

While going through the great name debate for my daughter due in a few weeks, I have had a few people say that with a 'difficult to pronounce' african surname... that we MUST have a first name that is 'english/european' or else risk her being discriminated against.

Would love to know what mumsnetters think... I am mixed european descent, hubby is west african. Is judgement still passed these days on names?

For example is Alice Kweli far better than Afia Kweli?

Would like honesty, am not offended either way, in fact we like a handful of both african and european names...just wondering what you thought....

[fernie3]

I dont think there are any rules about this in fact I would say the opposite - sometimes really plain first names sound a little odd with more unusual surnames!

[skihorse]

I have a very strange surname (scottish gaelic) but an international surname.

I have been to job interviews where upon I was told "gosh! You're white".

So yes... there will be prejudice with names.

[SerenityNowakaBleh]

I remember reading a couple of years ago that the barrister profession in the UK is dominated by ....


Drumroll please ....



Nigerians.

[mathanxiety]

Might it not also be the case that in certain professional areas, having an 'ethnic' name could be an advantage? Someone has already suggested that in a creative area, a multi-cultural name would not be a disadvantage. And there is a perception that SE Asians excel at maths and science, so perhaps having a name that indicates SE Asian heritage wouldn't be a disadvantage in a profession where strong skills in maths and science would be needed. Of course, the underlying horrible fact of prejudice (even if it works to your advantage) remains. It shouldn't be there.

[PrettyCandles]

I am not English, and have an unsual name that people often struggle with. Dh is English, but considered that his first name was weird (I disagree, but maybe it was unusual where he grew up). The result is that our dc have cross-cultural names, that can be understood and pronounced by both families, and that don't seem weird to either. Tho of course my mum doesn't understand why we chose the English pronunciation. [shrug]

IMO Alice and Afia are both lovely and easy to pronounce. Personally (and if you're intending on living in European countres) I'd be inclined to choose an easy-to-pronounce name from either culture.

[ToccataAndFudge]

oooo yes that would be interesting.

[SerenityNowakaBleh]

I was also thinking that, and the best I could come up with was Saudi father, Spanish mother, have DS called Jesus.

[ToccataAndFudge]

Yes I suppose it could well be different for Middle East/Asian countries.

I was sat here trying to think of a European name that would be considered strange back in Zim - and struggling

[SerenityNowakaBleh]

Agreed Toccata - Definitely less likely to happen in African countries, IME, particularly those which were former British colonies where English-y names are pretty common (SAn, DF from Zimbabwe). I'm thinking more Middle East and Asia

[ToccataAndFudge]

I suppose it could happen - but I think possibly unlikely in many Africa countries (couldn't speak for Asian/Middle East ones).

Where European first names have been used for several generations XH's father is called Jeremiah, he has eldery Aunts and Uncles that include George, Sandra,

I would say that easily 1/2 of each class I taught out there (10yrs ago+) had European first names, and DH's youngest brother (in his late 20's now) has the wonderful name of...........Kevin

[bellissima]

I must say I think that the recruitment policy described by maisiethemorning sounds brilliant.

[mathanxiety]

Afia is lovely imo, and actually likely to be confused with Aoife, the way things are going. I agree that a lot could change in 20 years -- look at the growing acceptability of Irish names over the years, even names like Saoirse which is (a) not pronounced as it looks to English eyes, and (b) means 'freedom' so to some it appears to have political baggage.

[SerenityNowakaBleh]

Personally I think the best solution is to have names from both heritages, so that the child can choose when they're older, or move more easily from one culture to another.

[SerenityNowakaBleh]

Okay, what if they go back and have very English name, which is unusual in their home country and nobody can pronounce it there, or they're discriminated against on that basis?

[edam]

Minty - ds has a simple Welsh first name. Anglicised spelling, four letters, two syllables, is VERY common as a surname even in England... and still people get it wrong.

Doesn't compare to discrimination against people with very African or Asian names, of course. But odd.

[ToccataAndFudge]

"There are other considerations as well - what if the DC decides to go back to it's not British/European parents' home country? "

and ermmmm what??

[MaisietheMorningsideCat]

I work for the NHS, and all names, DOB and date of education etc (in short, anything that could be used to discriminate) are blanked out on application forms when you are shortlisting. It's only when you call people for interview do you see any personal details - perhaps private industry may catch up in that respect at some point.

[SerenityNowakaBleh]

There are other considerations as well - what if the DC decides to go back to it's not British/European parents' home country? Also, this is assuming that all recruiters in 20 odd years time when the OP's DD is applying for jobs are going to be white brits/europeans.

[Rockdoctor]

I haven't read the whole thread but the CV discrimination issue in interesting and very real - DH (in his late-40s and applying for fairly senior management-type jobs) has a Southern European name and has been advised to include a photo on his CV. The implication was that his gender was ambiguous but I wonder if it's gender or race they're worried about - truly shocking!

I think Afia is a lovely name and we stuck with his European heritage when choosing names for our DD.

[ToccataAndFudge]

Minty - I have people asking how to pronounce my first name, or getting it wrong

it's Gwen.....

and people used to ask how to spell my maiden name as well - which is ridiculously easy to spell.

Interestingly DS2 is the one whose name is most often spelled correctly DS1 and 2 often get things with their names mispelled (through people guessing as they've only heard it said

DS2 is Tongai (prnounced Ton-guy

DS1 is Tafara, and DS3 Takunda (both prnounced as you read them) - go figure.

[MintyMoo]

I have a Welsh name, I like my name but people are so rubbish at pronouncing it even though it has only two syllables and the first syllable is pronounced the exact same way as the common word it spells out. I hate the way my colleagues point at me and call me 'you' or say 'I'm going to ask point at me to do it'. I also hated it that my name was always pronounced incorrectly at prize giving and at graduation, I also hate the funny looks people give me when I say what I'm called. FYI my name is Lowri. Low as in the opposite of high and then ree as in tree. It's really not difficult but people insist on pronouncing the 'low' part to rhyme with 'cow' as in the painter, Lowry. Even when I correct them. Some even have the cheek to say 'Lowry/Lowri - same difference'. No, because one is my name and the other is not!

My parents both thought my name would be easy to pronounce when they chose it but for some reason I get called lots of different names such as Chloe, Lorrie, Laurie and Laura. I've also been called Hilary and Larry.

Pick the name you want (I think Afia is lovely) but I'd definitely consider giving an english/european middle name as well, I really wish my parents had given me a middle name so that I would have had the option to use it instead.

[OtterInaSkoda]

Sorry - not read whole thread. But these studies showing discrimination against people with non-European sounding names are recent. By all means use them to inform your decision (although I think that would be so sad) but baby Missy won't be applying for jobs until, perhaps, 2020! If attitudes haven't changed, perhaps recruitment methods might. We just don't know.

[Blu]

I don't think any of this implies an office job a all! CV / job application - most have your name on them!

HapySmiley - that's interesting..it's an insidious business, isn' it?

[bellissima]

I think Afia is lovely and I think the fact that the spelling/pronunciation is clear just makes life a bit easier. The latter I hope has nothing to do with racism (other than a possible 'slur' that the English might be bad spellers!) but my own DC2 has a Flemish name that is very unusual here and the fact that the spelling is 'obvious' helps just eg when joining the new swimming class, seeing the receptionist at the dentist etc - 'office life' is some way off!

[meadowlarks]

You're assuming that the OP's child will have an office job, and that based on the experiences of some others, they will have difficulty because of their name. The truth is we cannot possibly know, so I say give your child the name you want, and let them develop into an individual as best you can. A personality is far more valuable to any employer than the pronunciation of a name, or anyone else, for that matter.