to wonder why people say they would NEVER vote Labour/Tory?

[scarletlilybug]

Being something of a floating voter, this is something which genuinely bemuses me. Saying "never", that is.

"I'd never vote Tory".
"I'd never vote Labour".
What, regardless of the policies proposed/party leader? Is there no conceivable change that a particular political party could make to induce you to vote for them?

I'm downright worried by people who proclaim that "I will always vote xxxx".

For example, people who would never vote Conservative because of Thatcher? Notwithstanding the fact that she's been off the scene for almist 20 years?

OR who would never vote Labour because of Blair and the Iraq war? When he, too, is gone (or sort of - I shudder to think of him as President of Europe. But that's another issue...).

(These are just examples here of the sort of thing I've heard, to try to explain what I mean).

What's wrong with listening to the actual policies a party is proposing, making a judgement call about the qualities of their leadership - and then voting accordingly?

[curiositykilled]

harryharpie - you already posted that post on the gilbert and george thread.

[stressedHEmum]

I should also add to my anti Tory rant that there was no minimum wage and minimal support for those on low income. When my eldest 2 were little I had to work for £1.40 an hour. I could only work part time because there was no readily available child care in those days. I got to keep a whole £5 of my earnings evey week before it was deducted from my IS, but I couldn't work enough hours to come off IS because I would have lost way too much money and wouldn't have been able to feed the children and pay the rent, even if I had been able to access childcare. However, I was one of the lucky ones who could actually find a job of some kind.

[DuelingFANGo]

PMSL at the fact that harryharpie is coming over as the most chippy person on this thread

[harryharpie]

Yes well done Curiousity v. observant I said I would have to get the Fiesta agin coz I preojectiled over the GandG thread but slobbered over Daves photo. Christ that was a close call, cover my back girls!!

[Janos]

Intersting thread!

Personally, I could never vote Tory as I am a left wing/liberal kind of a person.

At a very deep, fundamental level I simply do not agree with or sympathise with their values.

The Tory 'mindset' also strikes me as rather fearful, suspicious and niggardly which are frankly not attractive qualities.

I suppose what I mean is that it seems be to perpetually operating under the notion that some nebulous group, (could be single mums, could be immigrants, homosexuals, or combination thereof) is trying to TAKE ALL THEIR STUFF THAT THEY WORKED REALLY HARD FOR!!!!!

[skihorse]

hh - good for you, I agree that mn is not softright!

[AvengingGerbil]

Janos, yes, though it often turns out that the people who did the hard work were not the ones doing the complaining but their parents or grandparents...

[nighbynight]

Janos, I think that is a good description of a BNP voter, but not a tory. Tories, ime, are usually people who have been fairly lucky in life, and think that they are reaping the rewards of their intelligence or hard work, and that other people should also be able to get the same rewards by working hard. Also, a fundamental of Toryism, is the belief that the status quo should be preserved.

I would say, that to be a Conservative (as opposed to a floating voter who chooses the conservatives when they have the best candidates), you need to be either naive about where the power lies in Britain, or cynical (inequality has served us well for 1000 years, why should we change it), or else have a vested interest in preserving the status quo (ie be one of the haves).

[Janos]

Yes, nighbynight I do see what you mean. Your analysis is more sophisticated than mine, I think

I wouldn't lump BNP and Tory together - although I believe there may be some 'merging' of views on the far right of the Conservative party.

I#m sure lots of posters must remember all the 'family values' and 'back to basics' nonsense of the early nineties?

[BobbingForPeachys]

I won'tever vote Tpry becuase I have been right down there and the view was crap; besides I was born left wing and always will think that way, it's my natural place in life. That's fine, there has to be a balance amongst people or we go to extremes.

A Tory voter IME is someone who thinks that life is determinable, and we should take responsibility for any falls from that (and again IME hasn't likely succumbed to the non choice falls). A labour voter errs on the side of caution- a big safety net person.

There's a thing both PW and I like:

you either have to focus on the majority need and accept there will be a few scrotes (OK PW doesn't say scotes LOL) claiming fraudulently and playing the system, or you focus on the scptes to avoid benfit fraud and accept that it will have something of a negative impact on those who are rightly claiming: i think the first way of approaching the issue is leftie, the second is right wing. Whether that equates to labour now is another thing altogether!

[scarletlilybug]

Some interesting points raised.

If you look at the BNP policies regarding the economy, you will see they have a lot more in common with Old Labour than they do with the Tories. The BNP are very "left wing" in many respects.

As for preserving the status quo:
John Major (Conservative). "I want changes to produce across the whole of this country a genuinely classless society so people can rise to whatever level from whatever level they started" - 1990
I don't see this as a philospohy of keeping people "in their place".

[BobbingForPeachys]

I think bnp isa red herring no?

afaics (this is my opinion only) bnp policy simply panders to the masses (as defined by them- the massesI know would be offended!) and what NG etal seeas in their interest in order to carry on their xenophobic agenda.

I would never knowingly befriend a BNP voter,but wouldn't care a jot about other mainstream aprties (into which I include lib dem, greens etc)

[debs40]

if they look like twats and smell like twats....

LOVE it....

[BobbingForPeachys]

See, I neither expect nor really want that (think of thesocial collapse ), however I do want decent and happily given provision to the vulnerable, evidence of an acknowledgement that their success will ahve undoubtedly depended on the work and input of less well offpeople(fromchildcareto teaghcer,s factory workersto even slaves in a few very rich hereditary wealth famillies).

I want a realisation that we are all vulnerable to someextent and that tragedy opr bad luck can befall anyone, and that if they are happy to profit from such a stratifiedsystem then decentsocial insurances is the necessary cost.

That this should be given without a sneer oraccusation of laziness / fraud / etc

That they too benefit from being in a society that has medical andeducation available to all, they may send their kids private but who do they think educated the teachers, nurses, PA's etc.

That having a few quid to spare doesn't amke you better, just better off.

That enough for me tbh

[dizietsma]

OK, I'll bite.

Yes, I'll never vote Tory. Not unless they basically become the polar opposite of what they are and have historically always been. I don't care what they say, I KNOW they don't give a shit about people like me (poor, mental health problems), I remember the 80's, mum telling us to hide from the baliffs banging on the door for unpaid poll tax and no longer getting free school milk. There's still a very sizable block of the party made up of those people. Even if he is sincerely concerned about the plight of the poorest, and I am very sceptical of that, Cameron will never be able to keep the rest of his party in line with him on these issues. The Tories are a nest of vipers, only sticking behind Cameron until they get elected. Wait until after their (sadly, inevitable) election, that's when the real power struggles will happen.

I'll never forgive New Labour for all their betrayals. It's over. They are not interested in ideology any more, only power. Fuck them.

[Janos]

As for preserving the status quo:
John Major (Conservative). "I want changes to produce across the whole of this country a genuinely classless society so people can rise to whatever level from whatever level they started" - 1990
I don't see this as a philospohy of keeping people "in their place".

Oh well if he SAID that it makes ALL the difference....Because politicians never,ever lie or say what they think people want to hear in order to get elected, do they!

[Janos]

"That having a few quid to spare doesn't amke you better, just better off."

Well said Peachy.

OP you are right to infer that there is not much difference between the far right and far left. So you could equally have people on the far left of Labour having issues in 'common' with the BNP.

[pugsandseals]

My observation of the subject is that what you vote depends on what kind of society you prefer.
Labour will always promote a 2-tier society (rich+poor or upper+working class)
Conservative voters prefer a 3-tier society (with a true middle class)
I don't think any government has ever moved away from these ideals!

[nighbynight]

Agree, JMs classless society was just window dressing. Did he propose abolishing earls and dukes, and redistributing the lands their ancestors nicked were granted by the king to the people? Or getting rid of the royal family? Not that I remember.