to consider emigrating and leaving my father all alone here?

[OrangeSpacedust]

DH and I are considering emigrating to New Zealand. There are lots of reasons: the weather, better job opportunities for both of us, friendly people, more space, less pollution, beautiful scenery, less knife crime/teenage binge drinking/lack of respect for authority etc etc! Oh, and the weather! We have been over a couple of times, have several great friends there, and love just about everything about the place. We really feel we'd be giving our DC a better life if we moved over.

But the sticking point is my 61-year-old father. He is a pensioner and, although he is relatively self-sufficient, lives on his own and doesn't need to have his steak cut up for him just yet(!), he would have noone else here other than one sister if we left. Me and my family are his life, really, we see a lot of him, and I just don't know if I could cope with the guilt of leaving him. I do want to go to NZ, sooo much, but I'd feel incredibly selfish for doing so. DH says I would be selfish to STAY here, because I'd be denying our DC the opportunity of growing up in (in our opinion) a better country. He thinks we've been held back in the past by the obligation I feel towards looking after my dad, and that I should think of my family ? the younger generation ? first. I know Dad would probably say we should go if I told him, but I'd still be crippled with guilt. I don't know if we could afford to bring him over for holidays/go back a couple of times a year, or even once a year, it's such a long expensive haul.

The ideal scenario would be to be able to take him with us, but we can't afford to support him, buy him a flat etc, and I don't believe a pensioner with no savings would exactly be welcomed into the country/be entitled to any kind of housing benefit or social support. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Please, I'm in such a dilemma, I just want to do what's best for everyone and if anyone has any alternative suggestions/similar experiences I'd be so grateful to hear them.

[auntyitaly]

Ooh lola - your father sounds delightful.

Read Toxic Parents - yes, I know that sounds melodramatic, but it's a great book for sensible ways on how to deal with the manipulative. Applies to family and strangers alike.

Or suggest to him that, if he really means what he says to your DS, then he should see the doctor.

[2rebecca]

If my dad said things like that to my kids I would stop him seeing them until he could be less selfish. I would back off a bit and only see him a couple of times a week. That amount of dependance isn't good for anyone. If an MIL was saying that sort of thing someone would have called her toxic before now. Telling people you can only be happy if they do what you want is selfish and manipulative.

[lolapoppins]

auntyitaly - haha, well, the Doctor phoned me and said that my dad needs his family and that I should be more understanding of his needs. My dad loves to make out that I am trying to keep him away from his only gc - by trying to have life of my own. I can't win.

[auntyitaly]

Hear hear 2rebecca. Old people can be worse than toddlers.

Kindly-set behavioural boundaries are the only way forward....

[auntyitaly]

Lola! Don't worry about silly doctors - one of my friends was told exactly the same by her DH's (and her) GP after he went in for depression. She was obliged to point out to the GP that her DH was depressed over the end of an affair, which - strangely - the GP hadn't been told about. She moved GP too.

I'm afraid your Dad does sound really manipulative - and, boy, I really sympathise with you. A horrible trap to be stuck in. But you really, really can change the situation for the better. Just take baby steps to loosen his hold on you. - for instance, when he announces he is coming round, make it half an hour later, then the next week, suggest another afternoon, etc etc; the aim being slowly to increase the time between visits. Standing up to someone is much easier in tiny bits.

[lolapoppins]

We tried dropping it to two days a week, during the last week or so. DS is now homeschooled, so he now HAS to do after school activities like swimming, drama etc that he would normally do in school. We now get him coming round saying he fell down the stairs, is feeling ill, he was lonely that he was running round the house screaming, that he wanted to die. The guilt trips are worse than ever. I am becoming depressed myself. He wants to be with us all the time, if we want a family day out, just me, ds and dh (who works abroad in the week so family time alone with ds is precious to him) we have to lie about what we are doing or he will go mad that he wasn't invited. It is such a hard situation to put into a post on the internet, I can never explain it all correctly. I am greatful to have a father who loves his gc so much, so I feel awful complaining when there are so many people who have parents who don't care.

I can't imagine what life would have been like if we had of emmigrated to Australia without him, the guilt would have been horendous.

[diddl]

Sorry, Lola, but your Dad sounds really selfish.
I´m sure he cares in his way, but you need to tell him to back off.

[2rebecca]

Your dad doesn't love his grandkids though lola, he's clinging to them. there's a difference. My dad is a great grandfather and is looking after my kids for the autumn half term as neither their dad or I can get the week off. He'll take them all sorts of places and I'm sure they'll have a great time. He accepts not seeing them for weeks at a time because we live several hundrerd miles away but never does the "poor me" thing and would never berate my children for not visiting him more often.
There is some truth in the "if you love someone let them go" saying especially where your children are concerned. Clinging to people once you are an adult isn't loving behaviour. Limpets, even limpets you love need to be prized off.

[diddl]

To go back to the OP.
I think that your father sounds young and healthy enough to be left, TBH.

Does your hubby have a job offer?
If not, I wouldn´t stress too much yet!

[auntyitaly]

Lola - your dad sounds like, exactly like a hysterical manipulator. Threats of self-harm when he doesn't get his own way etc. I'm afraid that something needs to be done to improve life for all concerned, and you're going to have to wear the big shoes for this one. He clearly isn't functioning as an adult (although trading off being a parent.)I'm afraid, that knackered as you are with the situation, you're the one who will have to act.

Returning to mention of the doctor - although a GP is not the miracle worker people think they are, I really would talk to your father's GP and tell him about the the threats, tantrums and hysterics. Stick the facts and the words he used.There is also the risk that there's actually something wrong with your father, in which case a GP can act.

I would also ask for counselling on how to deal with your father (maybe not in the same visit - I bet you £10 your dad has told doc you are uncaring.) There are lots of other ways to sort this out

Has your father always behaved like this? How old is he?

[lolapoppins]

He is 74. Not that you'd know it, he looks and acts like a man in his 50's. He worked until he was 70, then left work to move here when we did. He has mild arthritus which he says would stop him working again, but its not even bad enough for medication. He has always been that was with Ds, but when he was working, it was easier as he worked shifts, so wasn't around everday, even though he lived across the road.

He has never had any friends. His line is "no one needs friends". Thats his comeback all the time when I tell him ds needs to be out meeting other children (and dh and I other parents - we literally know no one).

He is on anti depressants. He just wants to be with ds all the bloody time. He thinks it is normal that I have no friends, that I am in the house all the time because it suits him. (We have had a very tough time since we moved here, and everyone we knew from back home have moved on with thier lives and lost touch with us).

It has all made me depressed and has put my marrige under strain as well which doesnt help things.

Thanks for all your advice auntyitaly (and everyone else), and sorry to the OP for hijscking your thread a bit! I hope you manage to come to a decison on what to do about your dad.

[OrangeSpacedust]

Lola, don't worry, sounds like you're in greater need than me! I've just come back to this thread and there's been a lot of thought-provoking stuff posted. Some of the posts about elderly relatives withering and dying of broken hearts when their DC/GC went away really struck a chord ? that's what I fear would happen to my dad. Really, the only way we can go is if he comes too.

But Lola, it sounds like you're under terrible strain with this situation. Your DS needs to go out and meet other kids! (I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this ...) Please don't let your dad move in with you for a start. I really don't know what to suggest as mine is similar, but not that bad.

[dweezle]

I lived n Australia for 15 years, through my twenties and thirties, and married an Aussie. My mum and dad used to come over every couple of years for at least 3 months. When they reached their mid seventies there was no way they could manage that long haul flight anymore, so it was time for me to come home.

I loved my time in Australia, and I spent a couple of years in Wellington too, but really, the problems that we have here in the UK with respect to health service, education, racism, immigration, crime etc are EXACTLY the same in Australia and NZ.

And believe me, wall to wall sunshine can get just as wearying as days of rain!

I was lucky because DH was happy to move to the UK. We don't miss Australia (apart from the restaurants), and I don't have to worry about being so far from my parents. They didn't put an ounce of pressure on me to come back, and I didn't see it as my duty, but I love them and I couldn't bear the thought of a midnight phone call, or one of them being ill and not being able to reach them.

You don't have to stay in the UK because of your father - you have to do what's best for you, DH and DC - but don't think it won't be difficult, and get more so as he gets older.