to consider emigrating and leaving my father all alone here?

[OrangeSpacedust]

DH and I are considering emigrating to New Zealand. There are lots of reasons: the weather, better job opportunities for both of us, friendly people, more space, less pollution, beautiful scenery, less knife crime/teenage binge drinking/lack of respect for authority etc etc! Oh, and the weather! We have been over a couple of times, have several great friends there, and love just about everything about the place. We really feel we'd be giving our DC a better life if we moved over.

But the sticking point is my 61-year-old father. He is a pensioner and, although he is relatively self-sufficient, lives on his own and doesn't need to have his steak cut up for him just yet(!), he would have noone else here other than one sister if we left. Me and my family are his life, really, we see a lot of him, and I just don't know if I could cope with the guilt of leaving him. I do want to go to NZ, sooo much, but I'd feel incredibly selfish for doing so. DH says I would be selfish to STAY here, because I'd be denying our DC the opportunity of growing up in (in our opinion) a better country. He thinks we've been held back in the past by the obligation I feel towards looking after my dad, and that I should think of my family ? the younger generation ? first. I know Dad would probably say we should go if I told him, but I'd still be crippled with guilt. I don't know if we could afford to bring him over for holidays/go back a couple of times a year, or even once a year, it's such a long expensive haul.

The ideal scenario would be to be able to take him with us, but we can't afford to support him, buy him a flat etc, and I don't believe a pensioner with no savings would exactly be welcomed into the country/be entitled to any kind of housing benefit or social support. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Please, I'm in such a dilemma, I just want to do what's best for everyone and if anyone has any alternative suggestions/similar experiences I'd be so grateful to hear them.

[delphinedownunder]

Well - from a NZ perspective, here is my take.
NZ weather isn't at all similar to the UK. Yeah - it gets cold in the winter time and when it rains it really rains. BUT we get loads of big blue sky days summer and winter and we virtually live outside in the summer months. The quality of the light is totally different - it is very clear and bright.
Not sure about the better job opportunities - pay is much poorer which makes visits back to the UK really hard because everything is so very expensive. There are lots of crime problems here, but compared to the UK it seems like quite small potatoes. Lots of gang problems too, but if you live outside a gang area, this is something you only tend to see on the news. The be honest, the North Island seems like a different country to me in the south.
Your Dad should be eligible for a parent visa after you have held residency for three years (I think its three). But you have to sign a form promising to support him if all goes wrong. He would be eligible for health care, but no other benefits. Older people (and younger people too) can find it hard to settle and I have heard lots of stories about people returning to the UK recently. My own parents returned after 18 months leaving their only grandchildren here in NZ as they missed all that was familiar too much. I think that it is unrealistic to imagine that you would be in a position to visit the UK even on an annual basis and if your Dad can't come with you, you might need to be be prepared to face some harsh realities about how many more times you can expect to see him. I am off to the UK for our first visit in 7 years next month and my Dad is really quite unwell. There will be some unpleasant truths for me to face when I board that NZ bound plane at the end of the trip and I have to accept that this is part of the decision I made 7 years ago.

[diddl]

This is going to sound horrible, but if your Dad can´t afford to go financially, I don´t see why it´s up to you to pay.
Doesn´t he have a house to sell?

Isn´t he working at 61?

[2rebecca]

61 seems very young to me to feel obliged to take him with you. When I'm 61 if my kids emigrate I wouldn't expect them to be taking me, and would hope they didn't feel obliged to treat me like a child needing fussed over. Even if I'm not married then I still expect to be independant. He's lucky if he's been able to retire at 61 but I would encourage him to get out more and meet new friends. My dad is a widower and over 10 years older than your dad but made himself go to evening classes/ take up new hobbies etc after mum died so he wasn't isolated.
Even if you decide not to emigrate I'd be inclined to get your dad more independant. It sounds as though you are parenting him not the other way round. He sounds quite selfish being that much of a drain on you at a young age. I think people who decide they don't want to meet people and just want to see their family are very selfish.

[QuintessentialShadows]

My situation is slightly different, as I left Norway for London at 21, when my parents were still quite young, my mum 58 and my father 66. I am 37 now, and have lived in Norway again for just over a year.

I met and married my husband, we have 2 children who had grown up in London. Our oldest had started school, and they were "londoners", never considered my Norwegian heritage other than when visiting their grandparents twice per year.

After 16 years in London, a lovely little house, good jobs, settled and happy, when our oldest was 6 and our youngest 3, we were facing some pretty tough choices and I found I could not live with myself with such a distance to my parents.

My mum has incurable cancer, and started suffering from memory loss. She started being really confused, mixing up cooking times, dates, could not remember my birthday, and other vital facts you take for granted that your parents know. She is my fathers carer, as he is paralyzed after a stroke just before our oldest was born. I could no longer close my eyes to the fact that there were 2 elderly people there, who were facing old age and ill health all on their own with no child to even look in on them.

I figured, they had given me all their love and care when they brought me up, and love is a two way thing, you cannot receive throughout your life, and turn a blind eye when the roles reverse and the parent need a little parenting him/herself. It is a decent thing.

Your father is young now, and as long as he is happy and healthy, you have really no particular obligation, I suppose, unless you count in a relationship between your kids and him, as an obligation to them both/all.

But you need to know that a few years down the line, you have to take responsibility for the choices you make today. This means either closing your heart and turn a blind eye, or uprooting a settled family from a life they love. In either case, if your life pans out like mine, you will be between a rock and a hard place, and I dont envy you this.

So, is there nowhere else in Europe where you can have a life you describe?

From your description, Norway seems to fit the bill. Find work outside Oslo, and you are a short flight from the UK, with low crime rates, good schools, nature, fjords and mountains, and the weather is usually sunny and warm, but not warmer than in the uk. (I am across the polar circle, so we are covered in snow from November to May)

[AcornOnmyfoot]

As some one who knows both sides please do not have a romantic idea about any country, you could go anywhere on holiday and have a fab time in a low crime area, including Dorset, Wilts/West Berks, parts of Cornwall, Devon etc.

NZ has a terrible race problem in certain areas and income is so low for comparable jobs to UK you could be in for a big shock. NZ is crying out for teachers etc because they have a terrible time with awful levels of knife crime,violence etc.

Any country which has not solved the indigenous people's rights and where there is out of date racist attitudes (a lot of racist people from UK emigrated to NZ thinking it would be better there) means that on the surface things are rosy but dig deeper there are serious entrenched problems.

The only people I know who continue having a blast in NZ are the millionaires who can pursue their outdoor sporting dreams. The others are struggling esp. if they depend on NZ for employment. Very precarious in these economic times if you don't have £100,000s to invest.

If it's a change you are after I would seriously consider going to a beautiful part of the UK where crime rates are low, you are not far from Europe, London etc and the economic situation is better (ie you may have good employment so able to finance lots of exciting trips).

If the guilt is eating you up already and you haven't even left it will act like a tumour and poison and spoil any hope of a happy transition.

So I would say give it a trial period, a year or two but keep your options open for a return. Rent out your house in the meanwhile, don't sell now as if the market turns you would never be able to afford to get back on the housing ladder.

It's a rite of passage for most bright NZers to come to Europe but it's good to leave the UK if only to appreciate it more when you return a few years later!

I am so happy I spent 10 years travelling the world and so happy now to have returned to the UK in a most beautiful place with excellent schools but I might not be saying that had I not gone away first.

Old fashioned sexist attitudes are very much widespread elsewhere, that is something else I was surprised at (and found hard to stomach)in NZ and Australia.

[l39]

"[my father] would have noone else here other than one sister if we left"

Is your father close to his sister? If he goes with you, your elderly aunt will be totally alone - would he be all right with that?

[malovitt]

If you think that New Zealand has low crime, few drugs and less teenage binge drinking, you are deluding yourselves.

I've spent a considerable time there and most of the young people I came across were permanently stoned and/or drunk, as there is nothing else to do.

Beautiful scenery, but Dull Dull Dull. Your kids will be counting the days until they are old enough to return to Europe.

[ninedragons]

In your shoes, I wouldn't do it. I couldn't break my father's heart.

[expatinscotland]

Well, whenever we went on big climbing expeditions of course all the English-speakers have their camps at base camp relatively close to each other. And those Kiwis sure did know how to party!

[Itsjustafleshwound]

I am an almost only child and I live far away from my parents who have no family to care for them when they do need help. What I am going to do about it, I don't know - there is just no easy solution and putting your life on hold just causes huge resentment. My mum was a only child to her mum and gran put such brakes on my parent's lives and it was just a lucky thing that my dad and gran had a good relationship or it could have ended in tears ...

On the other hand, a lot of my parents friends children have emigrated and taken their aging relatives with them and that too is a big mistake. You will be taking your father away from what he knows, you will not have the free time and will be busy trying to get your family settled, your career up and running that you won't have the time to give him the support he will need to settle down and he will resent living an isolated existence in a foreign country.

Good luck !!

[pinkgerbera]

I am from the UK & have lived in NZ for 10 years (& married a kiwi). there are positives & negatives about being here.

Positives - weather is better - summer is longer & winter less harsh but most houses have no central heating so actually feels colder even in the NI
-More outdoor lifestyle, if you are into that it is great, but obviously more difficult to do with kids & no family to babysit, until kids are old enough to join in. But hopefully once they are old enough they will get into that rather than play stations, etc
-For me quality of work life is better than the NHS although pay is much less

• More family orientated than the UK

-Less of a pub culture (that might be a negative if you're into it!), prob not much less teenage binge drinking

Negatives-For every job you will earn a lot less than in the UK meaning that travelling home very expensive
-If you are planning more children have them before you come, there is very little paid maternity leave here

• I am not convinced that there is less crime here per head of population (certainly in the cities), there are plenty of problems with gangs, drugs, knives, minor crime

-Your children may think the grass is greener & go back to the UK with their British passports as soon as they are 18 & decide to stay there

In answer to acorn agree that race relations could be better but that is also true of the UK. Australia & NZ are not comparable in their treatment of indigenous people. Although there are still issues in NZ, the founding treaty between Maori & Europeans is based on equality whereas in Australia it was legal to shoot aborigines until relatively recently.

I have to disagree that there is more sexism here, I think women here are more likely to succeed than in the UK & are brought up to believe that they can do anything, much more so than in the UK (unlike Australia).

I have terrible guilt about the distance to my parents, much more since having children. They are very fit and are able to visit us at the moment but in the middle of the night when I can't sleep I count the number of times that my children will be able to see their GPs . However, we would have that problem with my DHs parents if we moved back to the UK.

If you move with your Dad you will have the sole responsibility of him, he may not want to go. If you don't take him you will have the guilt. Sorry not much help but agree with others that if you go you should keep your house for a year at least so that you have the option of return.

[legspinner]

(deep breath - long post!) OP, I do sympathise, it's very tricky. However do think seriously about why NZ if you have no ties already, as it really is as far away as you can get from the UK and really expensive for a family to get back for visits.

I emigrated to NZ from the UK 12 years ago - my husband is from NZ, so there was a compelling reason to go there! I am an only child and my parents are retired and living in the UK. My parents have always been pretty good about it, with the attitude "if it doesn't work out you can always come back!" DH wanted to go home as he was pretty homesick so we thought we'd give it a go.

12 years ago it didn't feel as if it would be a long term option (being in NZ I mean, not the relationship!!) But since then, all of our DCs have been born here and NZ feels like home now. Since DCs were born I have been getting attacks of guilt about being so far away, and now that my parents are older (late 60s OK, not that old I know) I do worry about what will happen if anything should happen to one / either of them. There's also the guilt factor that they are missing out on their grandkids growing up. We get over every few years and I don't really think it's enough for my folks (they have not yet made it over here, but that's another story).

Is there any reason you are choosing NZ specifically? If you do decide to live here, don't delude yourself - a great place to live if you have loads of money, but the majority of people do not. Because of the small population, the infrastructure isn't great (our local trains date from the 1930s). NZ has lots of problems, as some other posters have said: drugs, a real culture of binge drinking, some horrific cases of child abuse, and continuing issues re indigenous rights (which at least are beginning to be addressed). Oh, and the weather isn't great compared to the UK either (especially if you are in Windy Wellington, where we live), unless you live in Nelson or Hawkes Bay! And do make sure you have a job offer to come to, rather than arriving and then having to worry about how you will support yourselves. Having said all that, I love living here, but am lucky enough to be in an area with great schools and a large family support network from DH's side.

Your dad should be fine in terms of visas / residency if he wanted to come with you. How does your dad feel about moving? I agree with other posts that have advised giving it a trial for a year or two.

Good luck!

[legspinner]

oops! pinkgerbera have just read your post after posting my missive - I have repeated a lot of what you said!!

[OrmIrian]

This is not helpful I know but I will never forget meeting this old couple near here who were selling the new trampoline bought for the GCs about 3m before their DD and SIL decided to up sticks and emigrate to Oz. It had been unexpected and all went very quickly in the end. They were totally grief-stricken and shell-shocked, whilst being totally supportive of the decision. It haunts me. From having their children and grand-children just down the road and popping in all the time, they went to having no-one apart from phone calls and in theory the odd visit once a year. I couldn't do that. My parents have done nothing but love me and my DC and wouldn't deserve it. I know it isn't the same for others of course.

[QuintessentialShadows]

My dhs aunt was griefstruck when we left London, she had been like a grandmother to our boys. She would come for dinner once a week, and she was always bringing them gifts. She would roast a duck and come to us, I supplied potatoes and veg.

We have no other family in London, but I miss her, and her two grown up sons who were like uncles for our boys.

I also miss my best friend, who is the godmother of my oldest. I miss my other friends. I miss my neighbourhood. I miss my local shopping centre, parks and cafes. I miss cycling along the river.

I miss most about our life in London.

And I know, that returning will only mean one thing; my parents are gone. So I cant look forward to that either.

Sorry for offloading. Everybodys situation is different.

[WidowWadman]

Just look at it from the other side. Once your children are adults, will you want them to pursue their dreams and live the life they want, or do you want them to stick around close to you, so that you'll always have them there?

I know I'd be sad to see my child emigrate to somewhere far away when she's an adult. I'd be sad because I would miss her, but at the same time I'd be incredibly proud of her.

My mum was supportive of me moving away, despite missing me like crazy, my dad has given me a hard time about it for a long time and made me feel guilty a lot. I've plegded at this time that I will never ever give a child of mine this kind of grief if this child wants to emigrate, as it is a difficult choice as it is, and support is unvaluable, the guilt will be there anyway.

To the poster who said that they couldn't break their father's heart, I think it's an unfair thing to ask of any child. You've only got one life, so you have to make the best of it. If moving away is part of it, so be it. Staying near your parents out of a false sense of responsibility ultimately can only lead to regret and resentment, and heartbreak.

I shall step off my soapbox now, but this is a topic very close to home for me.

[expatinscotland]

Aw, QS! What a touching post!

We will begin visiting at least once a year ourselves, and our folks come twice a year as long as they are able.

And visiting DH's parents in Edinburgh more often, which we need to take lodging to do as there's no room for all of us, but hopefully we'll be visiting at off times so can use a great hostel.

We will live in a flat with no garden but it has the advantage of low rent so we can always save money for visits. Also the pound is always better than the dollar!

Again, this is about as far as I'd care to be and for us, it's because teh schools are better.

[Catper33]

Only you and your family can know if its the right thing to do. We emigrated to NZ from the UK a few years ago and for us it has been great, but we do miss our family and friends. The 'parent visa' thing has certainly changed recently and I understand that after the 3 years of permanent residency you can then sponsor your parent(s) there is then a 2 year wait for the allocation of a case officer from the time of submission of the application. Then everything is processed which can take an unknown amount of time depending on the application details.

I would suggest research it all, understand the process's, ensure to the best of your knowledge moving to NZ or whichever country is the best for your family then be prepared for stumbling blocks during the process, heartache,people taking money from you in application fees etc, stress, guilt and all the rest- some of these things go when you are out the other side, but there are some things that don't go away, but may be outweighed by other benefits/factors for your family.

Whatever you decide good luck.

[WowOoo]

You're not being unreasonable at all.

But, it's soo far away and I think you'd feel guilty and miss him.

I had a long spell of living abroad when my mother was alive and I sometimes regret those years. But only in terms of how much I missed being so far away from her; doing my own thing. I got so much out of the experience and she was happy for me and proud of me.

You gotta do what you gotta though. Does that help?!!

[IWishIWasAFrog]

I would take another look at the job situation, I don't think it's quite as rosy from what I've heard from NZ friends that married British guys and tried to make a go of it in NZ, almost everone came back after 18 mo.

It is very, very far from everything.

If you do decide to go, you could always have your dad over for 6 months of the year, eg. he can go to NZ for the southern hemisphere summer and miss the European winter, and come back for European summer again, iyswim. But 61 is quite young. Does he still work/have friends/hobbies etc?

I'm also an immigrant, living in the UK for almost 4 years. It is very hard to start over in a new country. Have you thought it through? One thing to holiday somewhere, another to live there.

[lolapoppins]

I don't think a lot of people realise the pressure parents can put on their children, especially only children. Everyone I know always says to me that I have to live my life and do what makes me happy, not my dad, bit it really isn't that simple.

As I mentioned furher up, the OPs dad sounds like mine, who's life revolves around his grandchild, no freinds, no other family, no hobbies (and believe me, I have tried so hard over the years to help him get interrests). He says he is lonely, but that doesn't need anyone or anything as he has his grandson. That's a huge amount of pressure on my son as well as me.

We had an amazing opportunity to go to Aus a couple of years ago, with work sorted for my husband with his existing company, we have friends there - far more than the 0 friends we have in the UK (I scrimp and save to go Aus for a month every year, I know holidays are differnt, but I have been happy there) but my dad couldn't get a visa to come with us and we didn't go.

But, I am thinking of moving 100 miles away in this country, and my dad is even making me feel guilty about that, to the point where I am keeping my family somewhere we are all unhappy.

I understand where the OP is coming from. My dad is 74 now, but FWIW, he was just like this at 61. Of course I love my dad, and am greatful for having a loving parent (lost my mum when I was 12) but the resentment does build over time.

[2rebecca]

If your dad is 74 and he says you are his main interest in life then him refusing to move 100 miles to be with you if you moved is illogical. he sounds quite manipulative and I suspect i'd have moved away from him before now with that attitude. No-one should make anyone else feel that they are responsible for making them happy (apart from dependant children).

[lolapoppins]

2rebecca - he isn't refusing to move with us, he keeps saying he will follow us anywhere to be near ds. It is suffocating, even for ds who is nearly 7 and wants to play with other kids/do activites in the evenings but doesn't want to make his grandad upset by not being here to see him. And yes, my dad makes comments to ds like "I haven't seen you in two days, I was so lonley, I thought I would die" etc. We have told him he can't say things like that to a child, but he won't listen. We have to be available for him to see my ds most days or we get made to feel so guilty (have posted on all this at length before, sorry for doing it again). Trouble is, he can't really afford to move again, hence the tantrums about us moving away from here, he would make me feel guilty if I moved 100 miles away and he couldn't come for financial reasons, not because he didn't want to come too.

We moved 300 miles 3 years ago to where we are currently living, he moved up here as well a month later. He says he will follow us anywhere as his grandson is all he lives for. I have given up trying to get him to join groups, make friends, volunteeer etc, after years of trying.

He is pushing and pushing to move into our house with us. He is very fit and healthy and does not need to, and tbh, I am quite young - I was born late into his life - and don't want my dad living with us, I have little enough of my own life as it is now and could not consider having another baby in the future if he did (but obv I would have him move in if he needed looking after).

[auntyitaly]

At 61, your dad's not an old man by any means. Could you go to NZ for 5 or 10 years and come back when he hits 70 - again, hadly ancient.

If he's physically healthy, he won't need your care for a good 15 or 20 years - so you have lots of time to play with.

Forgive me for echoing others, but I share the suspicion your father is very deeply dependent on you. Part of that is his choice. Does your family deserve to pay the price for that too? And is is the best thing for everyone in the long run? He might thrive in your absence - however unlikely it seems to you.

Five or ten guilt-free years in NZ could be a good bet.

[Squishabelle]

I havent read the whole thread but can only speak from experience of a dear relative of mine. Her only dc emigrated and this in effect devastated my relatives life. She never ever got over it and died heartbroken. It was terrible to see her unhappiness.