to consider emigrating and leaving my father all alone here?

[OrangeSpacedust]

DH and I are considering emigrating to New Zealand. There are lots of reasons: the weather, better job opportunities for both of us, friendly people, more space, less pollution, beautiful scenery, less knife crime/teenage binge drinking/lack of respect for authority etc etc! Oh, and the weather! We have been over a couple of times, have several great friends there, and love just about everything about the place. We really feel we'd be giving our DC a better life if we moved over.

But the sticking point is my 61-year-old father. He is a pensioner and, although he is relatively self-sufficient, lives on his own and doesn't need to have his steak cut up for him just yet(!), he would have noone else here other than one sister if we left. Me and my family are his life, really, we see a lot of him, and I just don't know if I could cope with the guilt of leaving him. I do want to go to NZ, sooo much, but I'd feel incredibly selfish for doing so. DH says I would be selfish to STAY here, because I'd be denying our DC the opportunity of growing up in (in our opinion) a better country. He thinks we've been held back in the past by the obligation I feel towards looking after my dad, and that I should think of my family ? the younger generation ? first. I know Dad would probably say we should go if I told him, but I'd still be crippled with guilt. I don't know if we could afford to bring him over for holidays/go back a couple of times a year, or even once a year, it's such a long expensive haul.

The ideal scenario would be to be able to take him with us, but we can't afford to support him, buy him a flat etc, and I don't believe a pensioner with no savings would exactly be welcomed into the country/be entitled to any kind of housing benefit or social support. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Please, I'm in such a dilemma, I just want to do what's best for everyone and if anyone has any alternative suggestions/similar experiences I'd be so grateful to hear them.

[dweezle]

I lived n Australia for 15 years, through my twenties and thirties, and married an Aussie. My mum and dad used to come over every couple of years for at least 3 months. When they reached their mid seventies there was no way they could manage that long haul flight anymore, so it was time for me to come home.

I loved my time in Australia, and I spent a couple of years in Wellington too, but really, the problems that we have here in the UK with respect to health service, education, racism, immigration, crime etc are EXACTLY the same in Australia and NZ.

And believe me, wall to wall sunshine can get just as wearying as days of rain!

I was lucky because DH was happy to move to the UK. We don't miss Australia (apart from the restaurants), and I don't have to worry about being so far from my parents. They didn't put an ounce of pressure on me to come back, and I didn't see it as my duty, but I love them and I couldn't bear the thought of a midnight phone call, or one of them being ill and not being able to reach them.

You don't have to stay in the UK because of your father - you have to do what's best for you, DH and DC - but don't think it won't be difficult, and get more so as he gets older.

[OrangeSpacedust]

Lola, don't worry, sounds like you're in greater need than me! I've just come back to this thread and there's been a lot of thought-provoking stuff posted. Some of the posts about elderly relatives withering and dying of broken hearts when their DC/GC went away really struck a chord ? that's what I fear would happen to my dad. Really, the only way we can go is if he comes too.

But Lola, it sounds like you're under terrible strain with this situation. Your DS needs to go out and meet other kids! (I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this ...) Please don't let your dad move in with you for a start. I really don't know what to suggest as mine is similar, but not that bad.

[lolapoppins]

He is 74. Not that you'd know it, he looks and acts like a man in his 50's. He worked until he was 70, then left work to move here when we did. He has mild arthritus which he says would stop him working again, but its not even bad enough for medication. He has always been that was with Ds, but when he was working, it was easier as he worked shifts, so wasn't around everday, even though he lived across the road.

He has never had any friends. His line is "no one needs friends". Thats his comeback all the time when I tell him ds needs to be out meeting other children (and dh and I other parents - we literally know no one).

He is on anti depressants. He just wants to be with ds all the bloody time. He thinks it is normal that I have no friends, that I am in the house all the time because it suits him. (We have had a very tough time since we moved here, and everyone we knew from back home have moved on with thier lives and lost touch with us).

It has all made me depressed and has put my marrige under strain as well which doesnt help things.

Thanks for all your advice auntyitaly (and everyone else), and sorry to the OP for hijscking your thread a bit! I hope you manage to come to a decison on what to do about your dad.

[auntyitaly]

Lola - your dad sounds like, exactly like a hysterical manipulator. Threats of self-harm when he doesn't get his own way etc. I'm afraid that something needs to be done to improve life for all concerned, and you're going to have to wear the big shoes for this one. He clearly isn't functioning as an adult (although trading off being a parent.)I'm afraid, that knackered as you are with the situation, you're the one who will have to act.

Returning to mention of the doctor - although a GP is not the miracle worker people think they are, I really would talk to your father's GP and tell him about the the threats, tantrums and hysterics. Stick the facts and the words he used.There is also the risk that there's actually something wrong with your father, in which case a GP can act.

I would also ask for counselling on how to deal with your father (maybe not in the same visit - I bet you £10 your dad has told doc you are uncaring.) There are lots of other ways to sort this out

Has your father always behaved like this? How old is he?

[diddl]

To go back to the OP.
I think that your father sounds young and healthy enough to be left, TBH.

Does your hubby have a job offer?
If not, I wouldn´t stress too much yet!

[2rebecca]

Your dad doesn't love his grandkids though lola, he's clinging to them. there's a difference. My dad is a great grandfather and is looking after my kids for the autumn half term as neither their dad or I can get the week off. He'll take them all sorts of places and I'm sure they'll have a great time. He accepts not seeing them for weeks at a time because we live several hundrerd miles away but never does the "poor me" thing and would never berate my children for not visiting him more often.
There is some truth in the "if you love someone let them go" saying especially where your children are concerned. Clinging to people once you are an adult isn't loving behaviour. Limpets, even limpets you love need to be prized off.

[diddl]

Sorry, Lola, but your Dad sounds really selfish.
I´m sure he cares in his way, but you need to tell him to back off.

[lolapoppins]

We tried dropping it to two days a week, during the last week or so. DS is now homeschooled, so he now HAS to do after school activities like swimming, drama etc that he would normally do in school. We now get him coming round saying he fell down the stairs, is feeling ill, he was lonely that he was running round the house screaming, that he wanted to die. The guilt trips are worse than ever. I am becoming depressed myself. He wants to be with us all the time, if we want a family day out, just me, ds and dh (who works abroad in the week so family time alone with ds is precious to him) we have to lie about what we are doing or he will go mad that he wasn't invited. It is such a hard situation to put into a post on the internet, I can never explain it all correctly. I am greatful to have a father who loves his gc so much, so I feel awful complaining when there are so many people who have parents who don't care.

I can't imagine what life would have been like if we had of emmigrated to Australia without him, the guilt would have been horendous.

[auntyitaly]

Lola! Don't worry about silly doctors - one of my friends was told exactly the same by her DH's (and her) GP after he went in for depression. She was obliged to point out to the GP that her DH was depressed over the end of an affair, which - strangely - the GP hadn't been told about. She moved GP too.

I'm afraid your Dad does sound really manipulative - and, boy, I really sympathise with you. A horrible trap to be stuck in. But you really, really can change the situation for the better. Just take baby steps to loosen his hold on you. - for instance, when he announces he is coming round, make it half an hour later, then the next week, suggest another afternoon, etc etc; the aim being slowly to increase the time between visits. Standing up to someone is much easier in tiny bits.

[auntyitaly]

Hear hear 2rebecca. Old people can be worse than toddlers.

Kindly-set behavioural boundaries are the only way forward....

[lolapoppins]

auntyitaly - haha, well, the Doctor phoned me and said that my dad needs his family and that I should be more understanding of his needs. My dad loves to make out that I am trying to keep him away from his only gc - by trying to have life of my own. I can't win.

[2rebecca]

If my dad said things like that to my kids I would stop him seeing them until he could be less selfish. I would back off a bit and only see him a couple of times a week. That amount of dependance isn't good for anyone. If an MIL was saying that sort of thing someone would have called her toxic before now. Telling people you can only be happy if they do what you want is selfish and manipulative.

[auntyitaly]

Ooh lola - your father sounds delightful.

Read Toxic Parents - yes, I know that sounds melodramatic, but it's a great book for sensible ways on how to deal with the manipulative. Applies to family and strangers alike.

Or suggest to him that, if he really means what he says to your DS, then he should see the doctor.

[Squishabelle]

I havent read the whole thread but can only speak from experience of a dear relative of mine. Her only dc emigrated and this in effect devastated my relatives life. She never ever got over it and died heartbroken. It was terrible to see her unhappiness.

[auntyitaly]

At 61, your dad's not an old man by any means. Could you go to NZ for 5 or 10 years and come back when he hits 70 - again, hadly ancient.

If he's physically healthy, he won't need your care for a good 15 or 20 years - so you have lots of time to play with.

Forgive me for echoing others, but I share the suspicion your father is very deeply dependent on you. Part of that is his choice. Does your family deserve to pay the price for that too? And is is the best thing for everyone in the long run? He might thrive in your absence - however unlikely it seems to you.

Five or ten guilt-free years in NZ could be a good bet.

[lolapoppins]

2rebecca - he isn't refusing to move with us, he keeps saying he will follow us anywhere to be near ds. It is suffocating, even for ds who is nearly 7 and wants to play with other kids/do activites in the evenings but doesn't want to make his grandad upset by not being here to see him. And yes, my dad makes comments to ds like "I haven't seen you in two days, I was so lonley, I thought I would die" etc. We have told him he can't say things like that to a child, but he won't listen. We have to be available for him to see my ds most days or we get made to feel so guilty (have posted on all this at length before, sorry for doing it again). Trouble is, he can't really afford to move again, hence the tantrums about us moving away from here, he would make me feel guilty if I moved 100 miles away and he couldn't come for financial reasons, not because he didn't want to come too.

We moved 300 miles 3 years ago to where we are currently living, he moved up here as well a month later. He says he will follow us anywhere as his grandson is all he lives for. I have given up trying to get him to join groups, make friends, volunteeer etc, after years of trying.

He is pushing and pushing to move into our house with us. He is very fit and healthy and does not need to, and tbh, I am quite young - I was born late into his life - and don't want my dad living with us, I have little enough of my own life as it is now and could not consider having another baby in the future if he did (but obv I would have him move in if he needed looking after).

[2rebecca]

If your dad is 74 and he says you are his main interest in life then him refusing to move 100 miles to be with you if you moved is illogical. he sounds quite manipulative and I suspect i'd have moved away from him before now with that attitude. No-one should make anyone else feel that they are responsible for making them happy (apart from dependant children).

[lolapoppins]

I don't think a lot of people realise the pressure parents can put on their children, especially only children. Everyone I know always says to me that I have to live my life and do what makes me happy, not my dad, bit it really isn't that simple.

As I mentioned furher up, the OPs dad sounds like mine, who's life revolves around his grandchild, no freinds, no other family, no hobbies (and believe me, I have tried so hard over the years to help him get interrests). He says he is lonely, but that doesn't need anyone or anything as he has his grandson. That's a huge amount of pressure on my son as well as me.

We had an amazing opportunity to go to Aus a couple of years ago, with work sorted for my husband with his existing company, we have friends there - far more than the 0 friends we have in the UK (I scrimp and save to go Aus for a month every year, I know holidays are differnt, but I have been happy there) but my dad couldn't get a visa to come with us and we didn't go.

But, I am thinking of moving 100 miles away in this country, and my dad is even making me feel guilty about that, to the point where I am keeping my family somewhere we are all unhappy.

I understand where the OP is coming from. My dad is 74 now, but FWIW, he was just like this at 61. Of course I love my dad, and am greatful for having a loving parent (lost my mum when I was 12) but the resentment does build over time.

[IWishIWasAFrog]

I would take another look at the job situation, I don't think it's quite as rosy from what I've heard from NZ friends that married British guys and tried to make a go of it in NZ, almost everone came back after 18 mo.

It is very, very far from everything.

If you do decide to go, you could always have your dad over for 6 months of the year, eg. he can go to NZ for the southern hemisphere summer and miss the European winter, and come back for European summer again, iyswim. But 61 is quite young. Does he still work/have friends/hobbies etc?

I'm also an immigrant, living in the UK for almost 4 years. It is very hard to start over in a new country. Have you thought it through? One thing to holiday somewhere, another to live there.

[WowOoo]

You're not being unreasonable at all.

But, it's soo far away and I think you'd feel guilty and miss him.

I had a long spell of living abroad when my mother was alive and I sometimes regret those years. But only in terms of how much I missed being so far away from her; doing my own thing. I got so much out of the experience and she was happy for me and proud of me.

You gotta do what you gotta though. Does that help?!!

[Catper33]

Only you and your family can know if its the right thing to do. We emigrated to NZ from the UK a few years ago and for us it has been great, but we do miss our family and friends. The 'parent visa' thing has certainly changed recently and I understand that after the 3 years of permanent residency you can then sponsor your parent(s) there is then a 2 year wait for the allocation of a case officer from the time of submission of the application. Then everything is processed which can take an unknown amount of time depending on the application details.

I would suggest research it all, understand the process's, ensure to the best of your knowledge moving to NZ or whichever country is the best for your family then be prepared for stumbling blocks during the process, heartache,people taking money from you in application fees etc, stress, guilt and all the rest- some of these things go when you are out the other side, but there are some things that don't go away, but may be outweighed by other benefits/factors for your family.

Whatever you decide good luck.

[expatinscotland]

Aw, QS! What a touching post!

We will begin visiting at least once a year ourselves, and our folks come twice a year as long as they are able.

And visiting DH's parents in Edinburgh more often, which we need to take lodging to do as there's no room for all of us, but hopefully we'll be visiting at off times so can use a great hostel.

We will live in a flat with no garden but it has the advantage of low rent so we can always save money for visits. Also the pound is always better than the dollar!

Again, this is about as far as I'd care to be and for us, it's because teh schools are better.

[WidowWadman]

Just look at it from the other side. Once your children are adults, will you want them to pursue their dreams and live the life they want, or do you want them to stick around close to you, so that you'll always have them there?

I know I'd be sad to see my child emigrate to somewhere far away when she's an adult. I'd be sad because I would miss her, but at the same time I'd be incredibly proud of her.

My mum was supportive of me moving away, despite missing me like crazy, my dad has given me a hard time about it for a long time and made me feel guilty a lot. I've plegded at this time that I will never ever give a child of mine this kind of grief if this child wants to emigrate, as it is a difficult choice as it is, and support is unvaluable, the guilt will be there anyway.

To the poster who said that they couldn't break their father's heart, I think it's an unfair thing to ask of any child. You've only got one life, so you have to make the best of it. If moving away is part of it, so be it. Staying near your parents out of a false sense of responsibility ultimately can only lead to regret and resentment, and heartbreak.

I shall step off my soapbox now, but this is a topic very close to home for me.

[QuintessentialShadows]

My dhs aunt was griefstruck when we left London, she had been like a grandmother to our boys. She would come for dinner once a week, and she was always bringing them gifts. She would roast a duck and come to us, I supplied potatoes and veg.

We have no other family in London, but I miss her, and her two grown up sons who were like uncles for our boys.

I also miss my best friend, who is the godmother of my oldest. I miss my other friends. I miss my neighbourhood. I miss my local shopping centre, parks and cafes. I miss cycling along the river.

I miss most about our life in London.

And I know, that returning will only mean one thing; my parents are gone. So I cant look forward to that either.

Sorry for offloading. Everybodys situation is different.

[OrmIrian]

This is not helpful I know but I will never forget meeting this old couple near here who were selling the new trampoline bought for the GCs about 3m before their DD and SIL decided to up sticks and emigrate to Oz. It had been unexpected and all went very quickly in the end. They were totally grief-stricken and shell-shocked, whilst being totally supportive of the decision. It haunts me. From having their children and grand-children just down the road and popping in all the time, they went to having no-one apart from phone calls and in theory the odd visit once a year. I couldn't do that. My parents have done nothing but love me and my DC and wouldn't deserve it. I know it isn't the same for others of course.