.. in thinking that the local council should NOT consider a living room to be a "second bedroom"

[fedupandisolated]

I mean it's really NOT right is it? It seems commonplace round here to consider a one bedroom flat as having two bedrooms by including the living room as another sleeping place. I've several families on my books who are DESPERATE for a move into bigger accommodation and have all been told there is little or no chance of that happening. I've written letters for some families (I know they do no good but at least I feel I am offering a tiny bit of support).
It's just totally crap that a family can be in a one bedroom flat with one or two children and have no chance of getting anything bigger.
I won't mention the damp and mould which affect some of the flats these families have the misfortune to live in.
How can this be right - in this day and age?
The more I look around at the housing crisis, the lack of affordable decent housing and the crap condition of some houses - the more I think Maggie and the selling off of council housing was the worst bloody thing which ever happened to this country.
Here we are in 2008 - a lack of housing and families with no decent place to live.

Rant over.

[expatinscotland]

that's what my ex h says. it's no big deal at all. but he was telling me things like if he and his wife want to move, they have to give their landlord at least 3 months notice, and the landlord can't just turf the tenant out.

so it seems more stable to rent than it is here if you are not in social housing.

but according to him, people don't see you as a loser or a failure or is snobby because you rent.

i've seen their flat, and yes, it is a much larger living space for a one-bed than you would find in most parts of the UK - it also has a balcony and a shared courtyard.

[3andnomore]

sounds like a typical german flat.....
my mum was on benefits and a single mum and we had, as I said earlier, a 1 bedroom flat....but over here you would have problems finding a 2 or more bedroom flat of that size...

when living in a social flat there can be stigma attached....but for renting- no stigma

in germany it tends to be cheaper to rent....not like over here, where you miht aswell buy, s mortgage will be the same amount you would pay for rent or less!

[expatinscotland]

it's in Munich.

a really nice space.

and the neighbours actually respect each other - no gits blasting music and the like.

wow, having courtesy for your neighbours, what a concept!

one of the academics i used to work with had a similar one in Berlin whilst she was on sabbatical and the rent and council tax was SO low compared to Edinburgh.

[misdee]

i will have 4 kids, all girls, plus me and dh in a 3bedroom house. some people have said i should wait for a 4 bedroom place. dont see the point tbh, i can easily fit 4 girls in 2 bedrooms, and by the time dd4 reaches 10, dd1 will be old enoighh to leave home if she wants to.

or one can have the cupboard under the stairs like harry potter.

[3andnomore]

munich is nice, so is Berlin...been two both towns only once (class/schooltrips)

but yes, courtesy for your neighbours is normal and there are certain rules...like no waashing out on Sudays or there is a midday-quiet time where people aren't allowed to make noise (well....normal noises o.k. but loud noises nope)

lol misdee

[Anna8888]

The number of bedrooms isn't really the issue though. I can think of two really well-off families I know who live(d) in huge old apartments but which didn't have many rooms, so in one case the parents slept in the living room while five children shared one bedroom, while in the other, despite the apartment being 420 square metres, two children had to share a room.

The real issue is number of square metres per person.

[mumfor1standmaybe2ndtime]

My sister and her partner were in a 2 bed flat with 3 children, 1 boy and 2 girls and a step son who visits some weekends.
She was told to sleep in her living room by the council.
It took 8 months for them to realise that she was not going to sleep in her living room. She has now got a new build 3 bed house from bidding on the new home options scheme.

Unfortunatley as expat points out, even people who are working (as my sisters husband is) it is still hard to buy a property. Who on a low/average wage can find over £25k for a deposit for a modest 2 or 3 bed terrace house which won't be big enough anyway and pay rent and feed 4 kids?

[fedupandisolated]

misdee - yes - definitely stick one of them in the cupboard under the stairs. . It's early in the morning and you've just given me the first laugh of the day.

[expatinscotland]

it's far more common than people realise, mumfor1st.

i know plenty of working families where the parents sleep in the living room and the home is the size of a postage stamp.

i mean, i've seen static caravans with far more space than some of these pokey flats.

not to mention, a lot of the social housing stock that remains available for rent is in poor condition, with damp being common.

the stock just isn't there. it's been sold off and if it was replaced at all, the council permitted it to be replaced with tiny 2-bed flats.

[lilacclaire]

In my council tenancy agreement, it forbids the use of the living room being used as a bedroom because of safety issues, think it is something to do with a gas fire giving off carbon monoxide fumes or something.

[bubblagirl]

i was in same situation for 19 mths we were in very small 1 bed flat council wouldnt move us me nad dp were confined to 1 room and ds had living room which was cramped and unsafe as no stiorage either in flat

anyway environmental health man took pity and informed me of new rule that living rooms are not allowed to be used as babies room they have same right to space as an adult the rule come about the other april so he told me to contact them again then

so of course i did he came and done risk assessment and measured rooms the bedroom we were in was too small tio have 2 people and living room was unsafe and ds deserved on space within 2 weeks they had moved us

but he said they cant tell everyone as too many people would need to be moved so its not allowed they have to have x amount of houses saved for immigrants and set amount have to stay empty this is what he said to me but we were moved due to the new rule

[expatinscotland]

Today's regional paper - this is a rural area - reports that this council has over 4,500 applicants on its wait list. Has received 1,027 homeless presentations. 1,151 properties are below the official tolerable standard and over 55% of the stock fails Scottish quality regulations.

Over 7,000 households are in fuel poverty.

Around 4,400 properties are vacant, second or holiday homes.

Caravan. I'm thinking caravan.

[Alambil]

My mum lived in a caravan - it was 20ft long static home type and housed my grandparents and their four kids; they LOVED it.

Go for it expat!

[expatinscotland]

There are tons of them around here, LF. Some of them are huge with three bedrooms. And I'd rather live in one of those than a flat and have neighbours on all sides and absolutely no outdoor fees.

There are some massive caravan estates round here and I've been pricing the fees and they're as bad as council tax, either.

So I think we're going to go that route when the time comes.

There's just no housing stock left and what is is shite for the most part.

C'est la vie.

[honeybehappy]

we've got to go and live with my mum and sister in her 3 bed council house cos we can't afford to rent privately anymore.
Me dp and 2 dd's have to share one room.

I just don't get how it works, my sister and DN live in a tiny 1 bed flat but MIL has a hudge 3 bed house all to herself and her neighbours have a 4 bed house and no kids.

[expatinscotland]

'MIL has a hudge 3 bed house all to herself and her neighbours have a 4 bed house and no kids. '

they got their tenancies when they had their kids living at home with them.

there was a rather impassioned thread on here a while back about the question of whether or not those in a home too large for their needs should move, with the general consensus being that it might be okay in the scenario where there was decent housing for such people to move.

but there's no decent low-rent social housing for anyone in most places.

[3andnomore]

system does need to change though...doesn't it?
A firend of mine has a 3 bed council house and at teh moment they live there with 9 people....3 adults the rest Kids under 15 year s of age to Baby's...would drive me bonkers...they cope, but not ideal...but her dd has no choice right now, she would be homeless or still have to be with ex otherwise, well or bedsit...
her brother never had left home, single young man with job got a little 1 bed flat on his own ( and my friend still feeds him, and does his laundry..., lol...to good for this world I suppose)
in reality this should be regulated in a different way.
Also, here we have a lot of eastern european living in large numbers in houses and renting their rooms in shift...to sleep...whislt in a way, well everyone to themselfs...it is n't a great thing to live like that, because of prices, etc...don't know....living is to farking expensive right now, isn't it....and it's going up

[expatinscotland]

yes, 3andnomore, the other issue is that the stock that is available is mostly very small flats or small houses.

just not built to accommodate large families, and the limited stock that were was either sold or is occupied by tenants who may or may not have present need of such large accommodation.

i don't see a solution to this problem anywhere on the horizon, tbh, especially because councils are so reluctant to build for long-term rent. the emphasis is on home ownership.

[3andnomore]

yes, britain has the smallest living spaces, hasn't it....took me a long time to get used to it...we now have a 4 bed semi...and for here it's a decnet sized house...but it is probably not much bigger than the 1 bed flat I grew up in, lol...and certainly smaller than the 3 bed Bungalow we moved in next (in my childhood)...dh can't understand why I want a bigger house, if ever we could afford it...but it is because this is small with no storage and we are horders...lol

but no, we are happy enough and have fab neighbours and a massive garden and luckily down here in Corby houseprices are better than anywhere else and it is totally improving

[expatinscotland]

yet many European countries are more densely populated than the UK. that's something i'll never understand. maybe someone can explain. i've heard people say, 'it's a small island', but it still doesn't add up when you consider some smaller EU nations with denser populations.

[suedonim]

Actually, only the Netherlands and Belgium (of the main countries) are more densely populated than the UK, according to Wiki. But they are majorly dense, it has to be said. Are density population figures based on habitable land only? I can't see anyone wanting to live on Cairngorm! It does surprise me on our regular flights over Britain just how much habitable land isn't settled, even round London.

[expatinscotland]

i wouldn't mind living in the Cairngorms.

oh, no, not at all. probably drier than here.

[suedonim]

I was thinking on Cairngorm as opposed to somewhere in the zillion square mile Cairngorm National Park!!

[suedonim]

Btw, Expat, you mention ages ago on a thread you'd been reading the autobiog of a woman who'd been raised in a traveller's family in Scotland. I've just bought it from our local (independent!) bookstore. Despite me forgetting the title and the woman's name they managed to track it down. I'm looking forward to reading it so thanks for the recommendation.

[Linchan]

Friends of mine had to share one living room which was the living and sleeping place for the couple and their baby son. They had to share the bathroom and Kitchen with another couple who slept / lived in another room. It wasn't damp but it was mental and no one had any privacy at all.