.. in thinking that the local council should NOT consider a living room to be a "second bedroom"

[fedupandisolated]

I mean it's really NOT right is it? It seems commonplace round here to consider a one bedroom flat as having two bedrooms by including the living room as another sleeping place. I've several families on my books who are DESPERATE for a move into bigger accommodation and have all been told there is little or no chance of that happening. I've written letters for some families (I know they do no good but at least I feel I am offering a tiny bit of support).
It's just totally crap that a family can be in a one bedroom flat with one or two children and have no chance of getting anything bigger.
I won't mention the damp and mould which affect some of the flats these families have the misfortune to live in.
How can this be right - in this day and age?
The more I look around at the housing crisis, the lack of affordable decent housing and the crap condition of some houses - the more I think Maggie and the selling off of council housing was the worst bloody thing which ever happened to this country.
Here we are in 2008 - a lack of housing and families with no decent place to live.

Rant over.

[expatinscotland]

Well, I'm a born cynic, but nothing will ever change.

There's just no money in it and hte culture has a deeply-ingrained penchant for home ownership.

[fedupandisolated]

So it seems the problems are countrywide then.
It's just crap isn't it.

[expatinscotland]

my ILs just couldn't seem to believe that there is no more social housing available.

they didn't get why we wanted to leave Edinburgh.

then SIL left her partner and they realise just how utterly fucked you are when it comes to finding suitable housing to rent affordably, even if you work. 'No DSS'.

[expatinscotland]

suedo, i hope you like it!

it was one of those books i picked up by accident rather than intention.

my landlords left some books and i got desperate once and couldn't make it to the library.

[Debs75]

We have a 3 bed house with seperate dining room so it is described as 3/4 bed. The problem is the council say we can have 9 and 1/2 people in the house. Kids under 10 are counted as half and babies under 1 aren't counted at all. We've been told that you can have someone sleeping in the bath, they don't take into account the posessions people need i think they just mark out your house like the slave ships used to and think how many can we squash in.
incidentally a couple I know had 8 children squashed into a tiny 3 bed house and were refused a move. There isn't enough larger houses around especially affordable ones.

[serenity]

Oh and I forgot No YA so NBU.

[serenity]

To answer MsHighwaters earlier post (if that's OK )

I live in London and have a 2 bedroom flat. DS1, DS2 and DD share a bedroom - DS's actually share a bed (triple bunk - single on the top, small double underneath) We are on the transfer list and do get 'overcrowding' points, but it means bugger all as there are many other families in my borough with the same problems. we have a bidding system here, maybe 2 or 3 properties come up a week and they're being chased by 200+ families (you can see how many bids there are)

Despite DS1 being really too old to share with his sister we can't get prioritised for a transfer or extra points because legally the council can view our living room as a room to sleep in. At some stage, I'd imagine sooner rather than later, we're going have to spend money we can't really afford, to get a sofa bed so the boys can sleep in our room and DD can can have the small room to herself. We can't afford to rent privately (we struggle now, and to rent a 3 bed place that isn't council will cost an extra £1k pm) we definitely can't afford to buy. We're stuffed.

Fedupandisolated, can I just say I heart you

[Linchan]

Friends of mine had to share one living room which was the living and sleeping place for the couple and their baby son. They had to share the bathroom and Kitchen with another couple who slept / lived in another room. It wasn't damp but it was mental and no one had any privacy at all.

[suedonim]

Btw, Expat, you mention ages ago on a thread you'd been reading the autobiog of a woman who'd been raised in a traveller's family in Scotland. I've just bought it from our local (independent!) bookstore. Despite me forgetting the title and the woman's name they managed to track it down. I'm looking forward to reading it so thanks for the recommendation.

[suedonim]

I was thinking on Cairngorm as opposed to somewhere in the zillion square mile Cairngorm National Park!!

[expatinscotland]

i wouldn't mind living in the Cairngorms.

oh, no, not at all. probably drier than here.

[suedonim]

Actually, only the Netherlands and Belgium (of the main countries) are more densely populated than the UK, according to Wiki. But they are majorly dense, it has to be said. Are density population figures based on habitable land only? I can't see anyone wanting to live on Cairngorm! It does surprise me on our regular flights over Britain just how much habitable land isn't settled, even round London.

[expatinscotland]

yet many European countries are more densely populated than the UK. that's something i'll never understand. maybe someone can explain. i've heard people say, 'it's a small island', but it still doesn't add up when you consider some smaller EU nations with denser populations.

[3andnomore]

yes, britain has the smallest living spaces, hasn't it....took me a long time to get used to it...we now have a 4 bed semi...and for here it's a decnet sized house...but it is probably not much bigger than the 1 bed flat I grew up in, lol...and certainly smaller than the 3 bed Bungalow we moved in next (in my childhood)...dh can't understand why I want a bigger house, if ever we could afford it...but it is because this is small with no storage and we are horders...lol

but no, we are happy enough and have fab neighbours and a massive garden and luckily down here in Corby houseprices are better than anywhere else and it is totally improving

[expatinscotland]

yes, 3andnomore, the other issue is that the stock that is available is mostly very small flats or small houses.

just not built to accommodate large families, and the limited stock that were was either sold or is occupied by tenants who may or may not have present need of such large accommodation.

i don't see a solution to this problem anywhere on the horizon, tbh, especially because councils are so reluctant to build for long-term rent. the emphasis is on home ownership.

[3andnomore]

system does need to change though...doesn't it?
A firend of mine has a 3 bed council house and at teh moment they live there with 9 people....3 adults the rest Kids under 15 year s of age to Baby's...would drive me bonkers...they cope, but not ideal...but her dd has no choice right now, she would be homeless or still have to be with ex otherwise, well or bedsit...
her brother never had left home, single young man with job got a little 1 bed flat on his own ( and my friend still feeds him, and does his laundry..., lol...to good for this world I suppose)
in reality this should be regulated in a different way.
Also, here we have a lot of eastern european living in large numbers in houses and renting their rooms in shift...to sleep...whislt in a way, well everyone to themselfs...it is n't a great thing to live like that, because of prices, etc...don't know....living is to farking expensive right now, isn't it....and it's going up

[expatinscotland]

'MIL has a hudge 3 bed house all to herself and her neighbours have a 4 bed house and no kids. '

they got their tenancies when they had their kids living at home with them.

there was a rather impassioned thread on here a while back about the question of whether or not those in a home too large for their needs should move, with the general consensus being that it might be okay in the scenario where there was decent housing for such people to move.

but there's no decent low-rent social housing for anyone in most places.

[honeybehappy]

we've got to go and live with my mum and sister in her 3 bed council house cos we can't afford to rent privately anymore.
Me dp and 2 dd's have to share one room.

I just don't get how it works, my sister and DN live in a tiny 1 bed flat but MIL has a hudge 3 bed house all to herself and her neighbours have a 4 bed house and no kids.

[expatinscotland]

There are tons of them around here, LF. Some of them are huge with three bedrooms. And I'd rather live in one of those than a flat and have neighbours on all sides and absolutely no outdoor fees.

There are some massive caravan estates round here and I've been pricing the fees and they're as bad as council tax, either.

So I think we're going to go that route when the time comes.

There's just no housing stock left and what is is shite for the most part.

C'est la vie.

[Alambil]

My mum lived in a caravan - it was 20ft long static home type and housed my grandparents and their four kids; they LOVED it.

Go for it expat!

[expatinscotland]

Today's regional paper - this is a rural area - reports that this council has over 4,500 applicants on its wait list. Has received 1,027 homeless presentations. 1,151 properties are below the official tolerable standard and over 55% of the stock fails Scottish quality regulations.

Over 7,000 households are in fuel poverty.

Around 4,400 properties are vacant, second or holiday homes.

Caravan. I'm thinking caravan.

[bubblagirl]

i was in same situation for 19 mths we were in very small 1 bed flat council wouldnt move us me nad dp were confined to 1 room and ds had living room which was cramped and unsafe as no stiorage either in flat

anyway environmental health man took pity and informed me of new rule that living rooms are not allowed to be used as babies room they have same right to space as an adult the rule come about the other april so he told me to contact them again then

so of course i did he came and done risk assessment and measured rooms the bedroom we were in was too small tio have 2 people and living room was unsafe and ds deserved on space within 2 weeks they had moved us

but he said they cant tell everyone as too many people would need to be moved so its not allowed they have to have x amount of houses saved for immigrants and set amount have to stay empty this is what he said to me but we were moved due to the new rule

[lilacclaire]

In my council tenancy agreement, it forbids the use of the living room being used as a bedroom because of safety issues, think it is something to do with a gas fire giving off carbon monoxide fumes or something.

[expatinscotland]

it's far more common than people realise, mumfor1st.

i know plenty of working families where the parents sleep in the living room and the home is the size of a postage stamp.

i mean, i've seen static caravans with far more space than some of these pokey flats.

not to mention, a lot of the social housing stock that remains available for rent is in poor condition, with damp being common.

the stock just isn't there. it's been sold off and if it was replaced at all, the council permitted it to be replaced with tiny 2-bed flats.