To think my kid shouldn't be concerned by her looks

[34and3]

Dd1 is 12, year 8. Every morning for school she straightens her hair and puts on layers of mascara as well as some concealer. She's almost obsessive with her appearance and it's worrying me. For context her friends do similar. They're in the "cool" group - or so they think are! We've talked about not being a sheep, being yourself etc etc. She's my first so I don't know if I'm responding to this properly. She's in a mixed independent school whereas I went to an all girls so I just didn't care.

Aibu? Is this just "normal"?

[Reallyreallyborednow]

I don’t know why we send the message to girls that make up is a terrible thing to use. Plenty of women, myself included, use make up all the time. Nothing wrong with wanting to look nice

no there isn’t. But again the implication is that make up is needed to look nice. It isn’t.

however the narrative is always “I look tired/Ill without makeup” or that women are somehow better with it. Make up and “looking nice” are very much linked.

there’s nothing wrong with using make up. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to look nice. But making the statement that you use make up because there’s nothing wrong with wanting to look nice sends the message that make up is necessary to look nice.

[sjpkgp1]

@whumpthereitis

Why not both 🤷🏻‍♀️

putting on concealer doesn’t deplete brain cells, and it doesn’t render someone incapable of taking pride in their intelligence and/or achievements.

that in itself if a harmful trope for women imo. If you’re pretty or care about your appearance then you must be thick, only the women that eschew make-up or regard for their appearance can be taken seriously.

I agree with @whumpthereitis. Back to the original issue though, I think it is pretty normal for all teenagers and pre-teens to spend time on their looks at some point and all four of mine have done it to varying degrees and at different times, and to an extent, influenced by friendship groups. It is difficult to draw the line of what is excessive / obsessive as we often use our own experience as the benchmark (or in my case combined with "a different daughter"). As long as she is happy, healthy and otherwise fine, and it is not causing either of you undue stress, and the school is not strict on these things, I would leave her to it. I do sometimes think DD3 spends (wastes) a frivolous amount of time on this stuff, but you forget quickly that they don't have the same life admin, workload and experience as you do, and this is something that they enjoy or are prepared to do. As another poster says, as long as they are not being mean to those with different ways, then why worry ?

[XelaM]

@34and3

Dd1 is 12, year 8. Every morning for school she straightens her hair and puts on layers of mascara as well as some concealer. She's almost obsessive with her appearance and it's worrying me. For context her friends do similar. They're in the "cool" group - or so they think are! We've talked about not being a sheep, being yourself etc etc. She's my first so I don't know if I'm responding to this properly. She's in a mixed independent school whereas I went to an all girls so I just didn't care.

Aibu? Is this just "normal"?

Do we have the same daughter? 😂Mine is also 12, Year 8 at a mixed independent school and is exactly like this. I wish she would be as concerned about her academics 🤦‍♀️

[Kanaloa]

It’s normal for kids this age to experiment with makeup and different hairstyles/clothing choices. It’s their way of starting to figure out who they are and how they want to be seen.

You can tell her she shouldn’t care about how she looks, but do you show her? Do you yourself take no interest in your looks? Wear only the most basic clothing, no makeup, no hair dye, jewellery, or accessories? Or do you show her implicitly (by example) that it is in fact normal to care about how you look and take efforts to appear a certain way to others?

[XelaM]

My daughter actually genuinely looks much better without make-up. She thankfully hasn't inherited my terrible white acne skin, so whereas I have always needed a ton of make-up to hide my spots and to not look like a zombie, she has naturally smooth skin that tans easily. Make-up actually makes it look worse. Even mascara isn't as nice on her as her natural lashes, so I always fight (a losing) battle about her make-up use. I wish I was pretty enough not to need make-up 😭I have always envied women who can look good without it.

[ElLuisa]

I tell my DC that no one spoke to me about feminism and female representation as a teen, and so yes, I was doing all of the hair and makeup stuff to 'fit in.'

I still wear make up because I'm not practicing what I'm preaching: my DC can make their choices, but it will be with a shit-ton of information about what they're buying into, in terms of girls: decorative, boys: not.

The pressures on women to conform to beauty ideals are insane. The least I can do for my DDs is let them know what the issues are and why the playing field is not level.

that in itself if a harmful trope for women imo. If you’re pretty or care about your appearance then you must be thick, only the women that eschew make-up or regard for their appearance can be taken seriously

I've never encountered anything approaching this.

[Whizzi24]

There is a big range at this age. Neither my 12 year old DD nor any of her friends wear make up (school is super strict on it anyway). She has recently started wanting to wash her hair every morning though so is starting to have a vague interest in her appearance.

I think if she isn't getting in trouble at school or making herself late it's not a problem to spend time on hair and make-up. I would continue to discourage instagram etc though as I think they can be so bad for self esteem.

[mathanxiety]

"Old" people saying looks don't matter are not being honest

This is 100% true.

OP, please stop bothering your daughter about the attention she is paying to her appearance. Either it is important or it is not. If it's not, then let her be.

She likes the way she looks when her hair is done and shes wearing makeup. That's all that matters. The world at large, including you, does not have permission to comment on the appearance of girls and women. Tell her that and mean it.

Stop all this, "Are you a sheep/ lemming" stuff. She doesnt have to be you, and you need to see the irony in asking her to resist pressure while piling it on yourself. You're going to drive a completely unnecessary wedge between the two of you if you keep this up.

When my oldest DD was about 12 (20 years ago) my Dsis gave her a book by Bobbi Brown called Teenage Beauty, looking at makeup and choices around appearance. It gave her permission to grow up and explore aspects of herself that she had given little or no thought to as a child.

I think you need to give your DD permission to explore like that. Create a sympathetic atmosphere at home, a safe space in your relationship where your daughter can be herself and look whatever way she wants to.

Don't try to tell her who she is or who she should be. The teen years are hers to figure this out for herself. Be a friendly supporter of her steps out of childhood. She will take these steps either with or without you; you can't hold back the tide.

It will be far better for your relationship with her in the long run if you become a friendly supporter, someone who 'gets' her concerns, not Soapbox Mum. Don't take closeness to your daughter for granted.

[mathanxiety]

@ElLuisa

But you have bought into the lightweight/ serious trope.

You have clearly differentiated between women who are ignorant of feminism and women who encounter the world as feminists.

The feminists are mindful of the decorative/ functional divide.

Growing up in Ireland in the 70s and 80s I very definitely saw at first hand the Barbie vs Brain trope. Your version of it is slightly different but it's still a dividing line among women based on appearance and what you assume is behind it.

[Reallyreallyborednow]

You can tell her she shouldn’t care about how she looks, but do you show her? Do you yourself take no interest in your looks? Wear only the most basic clothing, no makeup, no hair dye, jewellery, or accessories? Or do you show her implicitly (by example) that it is in fact normal to care about how you look and take efforts to appear a certain way to others?

wtf?

i don’t wear make up, dye my hair, wear jewellery or accessories. It does not mean I do not care about my looks. I wear what most people would consider “basic” clothes, jeans, tees, skirts, dresses.

why does caring about your looks always translate to social expectations of women? We don’t think men not wearing makeup or jewellery means they don’t care how they look.

i don’t actually care what others think of me. I watch my weight, do my hair in ways I think suits me, and wear clothes I feel comfortable and confident in. I particularly don’t care about my children seeing that my validation comes from others judgement of my looks.

[OoooohMatron]

@Greenshake

@OoooohMatron it was straight to the office for blue paper and water to be administered for us!

Ouch!

[OoooohMatron]

I have always found it strange that it's only girls who wear make up and do their hair are considered 'sheep'. Would a group of goth kids, all wearing black clothes, piercings etc be called 'sheep'. Essentially they are also dressing to fit in with their peer group.

[RedHelenB]

@Jostly

Hah, I just had this convo with my Y8, 12 year old, this morning.

Kiddo was about to leave house without even brushing hair (this happens Every Single Day, in fact I have to stand at the front door with the brush and brush it for them (!) before they leave. Else no hair brushing would happen. Tie was askew, shirt was hanging out, a few toast crumbs on face. Thank god for relatively smart blazer.

I commented that, at their age, I was primping and beautifying, and that I supposed most girls do today.

Yes, my kid is a boy. And so it begins for our girls. Not fair, is it.

My son " primps" himself and has done all of hos secondary school life.

[Carrieonmywaywardsun]

She sounds like a normal 12 year old. Please don't shame her by calling her a sheep, she's old enough to choose her friends and style and this will inevitably change over the years. Support and compliment her, don't damage her self esteem

[Kanaloa]

@Reallyreallyborednow

I was responding to the op’s comment that she thinks her daughter ‘shouldn’t be concerned by her looks.’ Realistically we are all concerned by our looks - the girl is just going about it a different way to op. I doubt op is absolutely unconcerned with her looks in any way. So really she isn’t saying ‘don’t be a sheep, don’t be concerned with your looks’ she’s saying ‘be concerned with your looks the way I am - be a sheep to ME.’

[georgarina]

So really she isn’t saying ‘don’t be a sheep, don’t be concerned with your looks’ she’s saying ‘be concerned with your looks the way I am - be a sheep to ME.’

Exactly. It reminds me of 'not like other girls,' dressing girls only in boys' clothes, giving girls boys' names, etc etc. Internalised misogyny dressed up as empowerment.

There is nothing wrong with liking traditionally feminine things. You shouldn't be limited to ONLY those things, but they are not wrong or 'lesser,' that's just reinforcing a negative message that girls aren't as good. No one shames boys for being into 'boy stuff.'

And my stepmum has a very very high level job and wears beautiful dresses and makeup every day.

[whumpthereitis]

The thing is that within each tribe there are certain behaviors expected, and criticism levied against those who don’t conform. If you wear makeup, expect criticism. If you don’t wear makeup , expect criticism. Pick your poison.

at what point do you stop giving a shit and just do what makes you happy?

[redskyhaze]

It's normal.

Let her get on with it, but try to inspire her with awesome women and tell her about all the amazing things she can do that are not about looks.

There's a great book called "Brazen: Rebel Ladies who Rocked the World" - it's a graphic novel that introduces you to lots of cool women throughout history. Would be great for a 12 year old.

Just let her do what she does, but feed her mind so she doesn't get too boxed in to her clique.

[Mischance]

Is she allowed make-up in school? We weren't.

[mavismorpoth]

Yes it's normal. I did this. I had bad acne trying to cover it up. I went to a girls' school. I can only imagine how bad it could have been had I gone to a mixed.

Keep talking to your child. Keep listening. there's nothing else you can do.

[LydiaBennetsUglyBonnet]

@Reallyreallyborednow

I don’t know why we send the message to girls that make up is a terrible thing to use. Plenty of women, myself included, use make up all the time. Nothing wrong with wanting to look nice

no there isn’t. But again the implication is that make up is needed to look nice. It isn’t.

however the narrative is always “I look tired/Ill without makeup” or that women are somehow better with it. Make up and “looking nice” are very much linked.

there’s nothing wrong with using make up. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to look nice. But making the statement that you use make up because there’s nothing wrong with wanting to look nice sends the message that make up is necessary to look nice.

It really, really doesn’t unless you’re exceptionally dim

[richieric]

My daughter has just started year 7 and does this. She's also in the "cool gang" and is getting a lot of attention from the girls and some boys. She just puts mascara on and curls her eyelashes. But straightens her hair. I was worried at first but I was exactly the same. In fact I wore a lot more make up and back combed my hair every morning to give it height. I think it's just a part of high school life for some kids who are into that stuff.

[GlassesWearer]

I think this sounds very normal. I was a secondary teacher and DD's age is about right for this. I'd be very cautious of trying to convey that the only way to be herself is to be different or not to follow trends. I saw far too many children hiding who they are from their parents because they're parents wanted them to be unique and cool and interesting and quirky but they were, in fact, like most of us, just as ordinary as everyone else in most regards.

[GlassesWearer]

*their parents! Oops

[Liorae]

My mother used to act like wanting to wear makeup was a serious character flaw - she seemed to associate it with promiscuity. Don't make a big issue out of concealer and mascara. It will make your opinion on more important things less regarded.