Ffs my dd just had friend's license confiscated!

[1lifeliveitright]

17 yr dd (18 next month) went out with a couple of friends tonight. In the 2nd bar she was asked for id and handed over a friend's provisional. The real document but it's not hers. Anyway it was taken off her and the bar man refused to give it back. Even after speaking to his supervisor. Dd left but now has no Id anymore and her friend has lost her actual license. I appreciate they have both committed an offence in doing this but how does she get it back?! I tried to warn her of the dangers of doing this but she's done it several times before and of course she knows best!

[Carrotsandbroccoli]

I see where you’re coming from @ancientgran but the vast majority of people are approaching this from the other side of the bar, as it were. As someone who grew up within the industry, were you ever aware of pub owners being interested in campaigning or influencing the law in this area? It seems to me that over the years things have become stricter and stricter towards the vendors but not towards the underage would-be buyers - which is surely the opposite way to that which would be in vendors’ interests!

[ancientgran]

@ColinTheKoala

They can still lose their job, it isn't all about prosecution

if a retailer has such a draconian policy that they will sack a person for making a mistake on something that is very subjective, then you'd be best off finding a job with a better employer.

How people look is subjective. So whether you ask for ID is subjective. The only way round it would be to ask everyone who buys age restricted goods for ID even if they are 80. Or we could have more sensible laws to start with - they don't have this nonsense in other countries. I remember being in Germany when a girl in front of me was buying cigarettes and she didn't have ID so her friend bought them.

I very much doubt a pub would sack a barman for not noticing that someone wasn't exactly the same as the photo on ID, either unless it was a boy with dark black hair and a beard using the ID of a girl with long blonde hair. People are really overegging the pudding here.

The problem is the licensee can lose his license because of this sort of mistake. Easy for you to say they are being draconian but it is serious for them. I grew up on licensed premises, my father losing his license would have left us without a home or an income.

[ancientgran]

@ColinTheKoala

They can still lose their job, it isn't all about prosecution

if a retailer has such a draconian policy that they will sack a person for making a mistake on something that is very subjective, then you'd be best off finding a job with a better employer.

How people look is subjective. So whether you ask for ID is subjective. The only way round it would be to ask everyone who buys age restricted goods for ID even if they are 80. Or we could have more sensible laws to start with - they don't have this nonsense in other countries. I remember being in Germany when a girl in front of me was buying cigarettes and she didn't have ID so her friend bought them.

I very much doubt a pub would sack a barman for not noticing that someone wasn't exactly the same as the photo on ID, either unless it was a boy with dark black hair and a beard using the ID of a girl with long blonde hair. People are really overegging the pudding here.

I’m not by any means saying that it’s right and good to try to use fake ID. Just that it’s unrealistic to expect 16 and 17 year-olds to refrain from it on moralistic grounds. There need to be proper repercussions for the actual wrong-doer. That either the law or the management visit unfair repercussions on the bartender is not a direct responsibility of the teenagers. And certainly isn’t going to dissuade most of them! Maybe I have more faith in 16 and 17 year olds being able to take a moral view if they understand the consequences to someone else but the easiest way to hammer that home is to make sure there are consequences for them and parents who support them and friends who lend them ID.

[Comefromaway]

Most retailers use Think 25 because it gives a cushion between someone looking over 18 but not being 18.

It is unlikely that someone who looks over 25 is under 18 but it is more likely that someone who looks over 18 is actually under 18.

Dd did once have to explain (whilst on an audit) to a sales assistant in M & S that she only needed to be 18 (with photo ID as proof) as they were about to refuse to serve her as she wasn't 25!!!! I think she asked for a supervisor to clarify the rules to the assistant.

[Carrotsandbroccoli]

(Bold fail above! First 2 paragraphs are quote from ancientgran!)

[Carrotsandbroccoli]

They can still lose their job, it isn't all about prosecution.

The whole thing about this thread wasn't about over 25, it was the OP being sad for a 17 year old who was trying to buy alcohol and feels it isn't fair that there should be consequences. Unfortunately in many instances the consequences are more likely to be for an adult trying to earn a living and a 17 year old should be able to understand that

Ok - if it’s about losing a job rather than prosecution then it’s the establishment that is at fault, surely? As in, bartender asks for ID, is shown something convincing, management then flip out and fire bartender because ID turns out to be fake. In that scenario, the management is being unfair, surely?

I’m not by any means saying that it’s right and good to try to use fake ID. Just that it’s unrealistic to expect 16 and 17 year-olds to refrain from it on moralistic grounds. There need to be proper repercussions for the actual wrong-doer. That either the law or the management visit unfair repercussions on the bartender is not a direct responsibility of the teenagers. And certainly isn’t going to dissuade most of them!

[ColinTheKoala]

They can still lose their job, it isn't all about prosecution

if a retailer has such a draconian policy that they will sack a person for making a mistake on something that is very subjective, then you'd be best off finding a job with a better employer.

How people look is subjective. So whether you ask for ID is subjective. The only way round it would be to ask everyone who buys age restricted goods for ID even if they are 80. Or we could have more sensible laws to start with - they don't have this nonsense in other countries. I remember being in Germany when a girl in front of me was buying cigarettes and she didn't have ID so her friend bought them.

I very much doubt a pub would sack a barman for not noticing that someone wasn't exactly the same as the photo on ID, either unless it was a boy with dark black hair and a beard using the ID of a girl with long blonde hair. People are really overegging the pudding here.

[ColinTheKoala]

@BigFatLiar

I also think there's a gulf between using fake ID to get into a nightclub when you're 17 and driving without a licence or insurance! A massive one! You can't compare those things at all.

It is different but its like when you say 'it's only a bit of cannabis', for many its not a problem for some however its the start of a slide to harder things. It does show a lax regard for the rules and often they're the first ones complaining when it all goes wrong.

No it isn't a slide to those sorts of things at all! When I was at school loads of us used false ID (mainly because driving licences didn't have photos on them then). As far as I know, all of us managed to go onto normal law abiding lives without managing to drive without tax or insurance, or drink drive.

It's like saying those who shoplift will "graduate" to beating up grannies and stealing their purses. They really don't in the vast majority of cases.

People on MN have a very weird idea that if you commit one crime when you are a teenager, you are a criminal for life. And it's massively hypocritical because I can guarantee that all of you have committed a crime at some point. Speeding, for example. It's highly unlikely that you have never at any point in your driving lives drifted over the speed limit. Nicking a pen from the office. Nicking a bottle of shampoo from a hotel.

[ancientgran]

@ColinTheKoala

No one has yet been able to explain how a vendor can be prosecuted in any of these circumstances because someone who ‘looks under 25’ to one person may well look over 25 to someone else

They won't be successfully prosecuted. Trading standards probably wouldn't even try to prosecute someone who accepted ID that objectively looked fine, and they wouldn't prosecute someone because they thought I looked over 25 but the trading standards officer thought they didn't. And the law says you don't have to be over 25, you have to be over 18.

Trading standards aren't going to prosecute for a one-off mistake - it's usually corner shops who sell to teenagers knowing full well they're not over 18.

The problem with the whole area is that there is a lot of misinformation, hysteria about the apparent risk and guidance being dressed up as law. The law is clear - you have to be over 18 to buy alcohol. If you (apparently) have ID that shows you are over 18 that should be an end of the matter.

They can still lose their job, it isn't all about prosecution.

The whole thing about this thread wasn't about over 25, it was the OP being sad for a 17 year old who was trying to buy alcohol and feels it isn't fair that there should be consequences. Unfortunately in many instances the consequences are more likely to be for an adult trying to earn a living and a 17 year old should be able to understand that.

[ColinTheKoala]

No one has yet been able to explain how a vendor can be prosecuted in any of these circumstances because someone who ‘looks under 25’ to one person may well look over 25 to someone else

They won't be successfully prosecuted. Trading standards probably wouldn't even try to prosecute someone who accepted ID that objectively looked fine, and they wouldn't prosecute someone because they thought I looked over 25 but the trading standards officer thought they didn't. And the law says you don't have to be over 25, you have to be over 18.

Trading standards aren't going to prosecute for a one-off mistake - it's usually corner shops who sell to teenagers knowing full well they're not over 18.

The problem with the whole area is that there is a lot of misinformation, hysteria about the apparent risk and guidance being dressed up as law. The law is clear - you have to be over 18 to buy alcohol. If you (apparently) have ID that shows you are over 18 that should be an end of the matter.

[Carrotsandbroccoli]

@ancientgran
No I like my idea of suing for loss of earnings, maybe trauma as well, if that innocent little drink is going to cost you and your child thousands of pounds you might think about whether ruining someone else's livelihood is worth it.

Indeed. Until that’s the situation, it’s pointless to try to force teenagers into taking into account all the consequences to the bar tender/checkout staff etc. As a slightly separate issue, I think the law needs to be more common-sense-focused in this whole area. No one has yet been able to explain how a vendor can be prosecuted in any of these circumstances because someone who ‘looks under 25’ to one person may well look over 25 to someone else 🤷‍♀️

[ancientgran]

@Carrotsandbroccoli

It isn't the barman/licensee's fault either but they have alot to lose. We can't just decide laws are stupid and break them. If people don't agree with the law they need to campaign, challenge their MP not make life harder for someone who is doing their best to earn a living.

I’m not sure I agree. We ARE free, in a sense, to break laws if we choose; but we do have to suck up the consequences. In this case, the consequences are losing your fake ID. The way the law works is that you have no control over how it penalises others involved. If it’s wildly unfair that bartenders get fined/prosecuted for what you see as other people’s crimes, then I’d see it as incumbent on the hospitality industry to campaign etc. to change that. That, to me, seems logical.

No I like my idea of suing for loss of earnings, maybe trauma as well, if that innocent little drink is going to cost you and your child thousands of pounds you might think about whether ruining someone else's livelihood is worth it.

[ancientgran]

[quote Carrotsandbroccoli]@twinmum2007
A nearly 18yr old wouldn't get prosecuted. The person who would get prosecuted is the licensee or bar tender who sold alcohol to an under 18yr old. I can't believe no-one on here has thought about this.

People have thought of it - and, indeed, commented on it!

I’m afraid it’s the law that’s the problem for vendors of alcohol then. No one is going to stop teenagers having a go at buying alcohol. If the law penalised those teenagers instead, then things might be different.[/quote]
And prosecute parents who support and collude with them.

Maybe the licensee/bar tender could sue them for their loss of earnings.

[Carrotsandbroccoli]

@twinmum2007
A nearly 18yr old wouldn't get prosecuted. The person who would get prosecuted is the licensee or bar tender who sold alcohol to an under 18yr old. I can't believe no-one on here has thought about this.

People have thought of it - and, indeed, commented on it!

I’m afraid it’s the law that’s the problem for vendors of alcohol then. No one is going to stop teenagers having a go at buying alcohol. If the law penalised those teenagers instead, then things might be different.

[Ponoka7]

@Comefromaway, there's new legislation on this. My DD works on agency in various venues and they have been told that if the person presenting the ID isn't the person on it, it has to be confiscated to prevent crime.
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2009/08/20/Pub-confiscation-of-ID-called-into-question&ved=2ahUKEwifyLjmiO7zAhXeRUEAHafsACcQFnoECCwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3lIKaMifymso7dhnvnOgYw" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2009/08/20/Pub-confiscation-of-ID-called-into-question&ved=2ahUKEwifyLjmiO7zAhXeRUEAHafsACcQFnoECCwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3lIKaMifymso7dhnvnOgYw

Photo ID proves right to work etc it's important to stop false use.

[emlouwat]

Aren't all teenagers at the same age doing this??

I had the birth certificate of a 30 year old woman when I was 17. Got me into plenty of bars and clubs.

[twinmum2007]

@OnlyGin

Sorry I can't get over someone suggesting the police would go so far as to prosecute a nearly 18 year old for using a fake ID in a bar 🤣 as if it doesn't happen every day of the week.

Did no one ever do this when they were young?

A nearly 18yr old wouldn't get prosecuted. The person who would get prosecuted is the licensee or bar tender who sold alcohol to an under 18yr old. I can't believe no-one on here has thought about this. If I sell alcohol to some one under age I can lose my license and my business.

[Inastatus]

@XelaM

Parents who condone their children having fake IDs are crazy. There is nothing cool about it at all.

Plenty of time to get into bars/nightclubs when the kids are of legal age.

Not condoning it but I accept that my teenager might do stuff I’m not completely happy with - that’s life!

[Carrotsandbroccoli]

@XelaM

Parents who condone their children having fake IDs are crazy. There is nothing cool about it at all.

Plenty of time to get into bars/nightclubs when the kids are of legal age.

I wouldn’t condone it - but, equally, I did it. That’s how growing up works! We can’t expect kids to have the same perspective as us.

[Comefromaway]

"Only certain categories of person (for example, a police constable) have legal powers to seize false ID. However, any member of staff presented with false ID may ask for it to be handed over. Further, they may advise the individual that if they fail to hand over the false ID, the police may be called to investigate the possible commission of an offence relating to the use of the false ID.

The previous section outlines what forms of ID are acceptable and highlights many of the typical features of fake ID and how to identify them. However, identifying whether a genuine document belongs to the person using it can be more difficult. When checking if ID belongs to a person, the easiest and quickest method is to check the photograph. For this reason, the area in which door staff operate should be well lit, or they should otherwise be provided with light sources to ensure that they can check ID sufficiently. If door staff have any doubts that a photograph in an ID does not match its user, the questions set out below may be useful in carrying out further checks.

[XelaM]

Parents who condone their children having fake IDs are crazy. There is nothing cool about it at all.

Plenty of time to get into bars/nightclubs when the kids are of legal age.

[BigFatLiar]

If he felt an offence was being committed he should have called the police, please point me to a law that says he has the right to confiscate someone else’s property.

If you look it up on the govt website (there are several links throughout the thread) you'll find that this is what should happen.

[Carrotsandbroccoli]

It isn't the barman/licensee's fault either but they have alot to lose. We can't just decide laws are stupid and break them. If people don't agree with the law they need to campaign, challenge their MP not make life harder for someone who is doing their best to earn a living.

I’m not sure I agree. We ARE free, in a sense, to break laws if we choose; but we do have to suck up the consequences. In this case, the consequences are losing your fake ID. The way the law works is that you have no control over how it penalises others involved. If it’s wildly unfair that bartenders get fined/prosecuted for what you see as other people’s crimes, then I’d see it as incumbent on the hospitality industry to campaign etc. to change that. That, to me, seems logical.

[Comefromaway]

@ColinTheKoala

Would you have felt sorry for the barman if he lost his job or the licensee if he lost his job, his business and maybe his home?People are so selfish

As I said way up this thread, if you accept ID in good faith you will not be (successfully) prosecuted. If an obvious 12 year old shows you ID, that's one thing. But that wasn't the case here.

The barman should simply have refused to serve the young person. If he felt an offence was being committed he should have called the police, please point me to a law that says he has the right to confiscate someone else’s property. The ID could have been genuine as it was when my daughter was refused to be served. Someone taking her ID would mean she could not work until she got it back.

[ancientgran]

@ColinTheKoala

Would you have felt sorry for the barman if he lost his job or the licensee if he lost his job, his business and maybe his home?People are so selfish

As I said way up this thread, if you accept ID in good faith you will not be (successfully) prosecuted. If an obvious 12 year old shows you ID, that's one thing. But that wasn't the case here.

Yet people have lost their jobs, maybe not as bad as a prosecution but still a heavy penalty.