AIBU SIL history not quite right

[madanne]

Bear with me, as this may get a bit longwinded. Brother met a woman at work just before covid. She moved back up north. They kept in touch and he left a good job to live with her. I went up to stay with them in the summer. he seemed really nice and they appear to be a happy little family. Over a few drinks, she told me her history. She had had a relationship with an older married man who left his wife for her but his wife was a nightmare and he was mentally abusive and they ended up splitting up but stayed friends. I wasn't too impressed as my husband had left me for another woman but I let it go. Fast forward to this week. The married man has died from covid and she has put a big status on fb with a photo of them together about how she misses him and how special he was. This seems a bit odd to say the least. I spoke to my brother and he was a bit annoyed but he doesn't like confrontation and won't say anything to her. I now work where my brother worked (the main employer in our town). It seems her story is not quite as she said. They all refer to her as the Bunny boiler. She did have an affair with one of the managers. However, she would not leave him alone and would follow him everywhere he went. She tried to stop him from seeing his kids and used to ring his ex-wife when she was drunk. She then had an affair with another married man after that and he ended up leaving the company and moved away because she wouldn't leave him alone when they finished. People said no one wanted to work with her because she was so difficult to work with and caused arguments. My issue is not really that she had these affairs(always 2 sides) but that she is not honest with my brother. He gave up a great job and is now reliant on her completely. It is all her family, her friends. He has only managed to get the odd casual bit of work and relies on her financially. He has only been to see his son once in over a year, saying he has no money (I offered to give him the money but he refused). If this was a girl in this relationship I would be concerned that it was quite controlling. He doesn't appear unhappy but I just don't have a good feeling. The fb post was a red flag for me. Am I being foolish? or should I take more notice of my gut?

How easy is it to get away from a man that is abusive? Pretty hard isn't it? Takes some women on here years to do it. Would you tell them to grow a pair and stop being useless? Please, the next time you see a thread like that tell them exactly what you've said here.

It's very difficult to leave someone when you are married to them, your finances have been tied together, the fruits of your work have been going into shared assets and you have children together, threats of not seeing the children, threats of having no rights to shared property, nowhere to go.

That's why most abuse only begins to occur when a woman is pregnant or reliant on a partner because they have children. This is a new relationship, they have no children together, he is not working and not because of any shared responsibilities that he is taking care of but because he gave up his job and didn't find another. I don't actually think you can financially abuse someone who is your boyfriend living in your house for free, they are not a family they are an unmarried couple, her money is not 'family money' she has not tied him down with responsibility he is free to leave when he wants to without losing anything other than their relationship.

FWIW my ex used to say that I wouldn't want him to do XYZ to his sister when we were together because she was so intensely inside his life telling him where he should be, who he should be spending his time with and he didn't have the balls to tell her no, so he would say we had plans, or that I would want to see him on the weekends the reality was that he wasn't with me either he was with other men in the pub where he really wanted to be. She to this day believes I was possessive of him, he was very immature and not a good partner at all. That was only to sherk the hassle of family things, if he had a child he would look even worse admitting that he was the one who couldn't be bothered.

*I think you're blaming this woman for your brother's poor judgement. She's the one who moved to another part of the country by herself -- it was his decision to follow her, quit his job in a pandemic, make himself financially vulnerable and only see his son once in a year.

Whether her story stacks up is largely irrelevant*

Absolutely agree. To give up a job, financial security and essentially his own son sounds like he was smitten to the point of irrationality and would have done it regardless of her past.

*Usual story where a man is useless but it is not his fault but rather some woman's fault, according to some other woman in the mans life (usually it is his Mother but this time it is his sister). The sister/mother/ whatever rings the man to talk about how terrible the gf/wife is because they noticed this or saw that or she said this or said that. That way the man can blame being useless on his gf/wife and all the women in the family are happy. They women in the family stick their nose in, every which way, the gf/wife leaves cos it is annoying and then the family say they were right all along.

The end.*

Brilliantly put.

@Chocolatehamper

If this was the other way around, everyone would be screaming at the woman to get out of the abusive relationship. Why is it not possible that OPs brother is in an abusive relationship? OP has said he talks to his son regularly but his girlfriend doesn't like him to see his son without her and is always too busy to make plans to see his son or his mother - classic controlling behaviour.

Those saying he should grow a pair should grow up themselves and be more responsible not keyboard warriors. Women can be just as controlling and abusive in relationships as men - some more so because men don't want to admit to being in that sort of situation.

OP, work with your brother, do what you can to encourage him to see his family, don't be swayed by her or let his relationship come between him and his son. Can you take his son to see his Dad? Now lockdown is easing, could you/would you be willing to take him and your mother to see your brother and gauge the situation for yourself.

Whatever happens, well done for looking out for your family.

I agree. If this story was reversed and it was a guy who'd been stalking women at work after their affairs ended and was known for stopping their partner seeing their children, there would be different answers.

Unfortunately though, even if there is DA he's unlikely to listen to you. All you can do is be there for him if, hopefully, he manages to get away from this woman.

@Anotheruser02

How easy is it to get away from a man that is abusive? Pretty hard isn't it? Takes some women on here years to do it. Would you tell them to grow a pair and stop being useless? Please, the next time you see a thread like that tell them exactly what you've said here.

It's very difficult to leave someone when you are married to them, your finances have been tied together, the fruits of your work have been going into shared assets and you have children together, threats of not seeing the children, threats of having no rights to shared property, nowhere to go.

That's why most abuse only begins to occur when a woman is pregnant or reliant on a partner because they have children. This is a new relationship, they have no children together, he is not working and not because of any shared responsibilities that he is taking care of but because he gave up his job and didn't find another. I don't actually think you can financially abuse someone who is your boyfriend living in your house for free, they are not a family they are an unmarried couple, her money is not 'family money' she has not tied him down with responsibility he is free to leave when he wants to without losing anything other than their relationship.

FWIW my ex used to say that I wouldn't want him to do XYZ to his sister when we were together because she was so intensely inside his life telling him where he should be, who he should be spending his time with and he didn't have the balls to tell her no, so he would say we had plans, or that I would want to see him on the weekends the reality was that he wasn't with me either he was with other men in the pub where he really wanted to be. She to this day believes I was possessive of him, he was very immature and not a good partner at all. That was only to sherk the hassle of family things, if he had a child he would look even worse admitting that he was the one who couldn't be bothered.

What, so you can only be abused by someone if married, working and have children with them? Huh, I wonder what the women not fitting that description would think?

It often starts out with the woman working, meets a guy who appears charming and then starts picking at faults with friends and family. Then suggests that since he earns enough money, she can come move away with him so they can start their nice little life together and doesn't have to work. Then she loses contact with friends and family, her only contacts are his friends and family and even that is monitored. She has no income, all savings of hers go into a 'joint pot' that only he has access to, because she must pay her way somehow. Then the kids come swiftly after, so she is even more trapped. You can very easily financially abuse someone living free in your house. It's literally the easiest way. Allow them no income, only give them what you deem as OK to have.

Only part ops brother hasn't got to yet is the kids, because he can't actually birth them. His girlfriend would have to take time off to have them and they need her income.

Your ex was also emotionally abused by his sister.

What a cock lodger, and only seeing his son once in a year.
Maybe he and his gf are well matched.
Wild horses wouldn't stop a half decent father.

But Clarke who is stopping this man from getting a job?

I have absolutely seen it on here time and time again that if there is no dependent children then only a preference for not working is stopping someone from working. Who is stopping him from being financially independent? He is not trapped and she's not a very effective abuser if she is showing all of her controlling cards before he is.
What does the guy loose if he leaves her and goes back to stay with his sister? Nothing he has put in. Where did the OP say that he has given her his savings? He has invested nothing, he's given things up but if he was that committed to them he wouldn't have. All you really have is that he now lives where her support network is, but by the sounds of the way she was living before that was something that she really needed to do for herself.
Why is she responsible for him? Would any woman on here living with someone she has no shared children with be told that she is entitled to her boyfriends wage? I'm certain she would be told there is no reason that she cannot work, splitting bills on a percentage according to income is the done thing when there are no shared children, his income is zero and it sounds like so is his contribution to their home. What more does she need to do for him?

Your brother chose a woman over his own son and somehow she's the bad guy.......mmmkay

I don't think you should get involved with your Brother's life style now,, just watch from afar, and be around for any difficulties that he may have later.. If this woman is an accomplished liar and controller,and your Brother is an easily controlled man, it will remain to be seen if he sticks with her.

Despite all the men ,often mentioned on here, where the men turn out to be controlling and unreasonable etc, there are many women who are much the same with a weaker man.

Well, you’ve heard some office gossip. Which is often a lot like Chinese whispers.

At the end of the day, your brother is a grown man who has made his own decisions.

@Anotheruser02

But Clarke who is stopping this man from getting a job?

I have absolutely seen it on here time and time again that if there is no dependent children then only a preference for not working is stopping someone from working. Who is stopping him from being financially independent? He is not trapped and she's not a very effective abuser if she is showing all of her controlling cards before he is.
What does the guy loose if he leaves her and goes back to stay with his sister? Nothing he has put in. Where did the OP say that he has given her his savings? He has invested nothing, he's given things up but if he was that committed to them he wouldn't have. All you really have is that he now lives where her support network is, but by the sounds of the way she was living before that was something that she really needed to do for herself.
Why is she responsible for him? Would any woman on here living with someone she has no shared children with be told that she is entitled to her boyfriends wage? I'm certain she would be told there is no reason that she cannot work, splitting bills on a percentage according to income is the done thing when there are no shared children, his income is zero and it sounds like so is his contribution to their home. What more does she need to do for him?

Why don't those women in the same situations get a job? Why do they stick around? Why don't they just leave the guy? They have no ties to them, not married, no kids, nothing. Why don't they cut and run too? Why is the man responsible for them? Because he wants to be. He wants that control. So does this woman. She's wanted control her whole life, tried it with married men first, never worked. Now she's found someone it has worked on.

You can switch the sexes around and you're asking the same questions to countless women who have been in the same situation. It's often lack of self esteem, vulnerable etc that causes this to happen.

Why don't those women in the same situations get a job? Why do they stick around? Why don't they just leave the guy? They have no ties to them, not married, no kids, nothing. Why don't they cut and run too? Why is the man responsible for them? Because he wants to be. He wants that control. So does this woman. She's wanted control her whole life, tried it with married men first, never worked. Now she's found someone it has worked on.

The man in the above situation is not responsible for them and he would not be financially abusing them if he didn't take responsibility. That is my whole point, my post said I don't think it's possible to financially abuse someone you have no financial responsibility for just because you live together that doesn't make your wage the family pot.

That was in response to someone who said that the stay at home boyfriend is being financially abused.

Well it's all his choice, but if she's an abuser then it could be that she's thoroughly cleverly manipulative. This happens, as we all know - usually a male abuser and female victim, but it happens this way round too.

Reasons for not returning 'home' to see mum/child, for letting down friends, for reneging on promises, these things are very normal behaviour from an abuser's victim. If you question them too hard, push them too far, they will stop seeing you as it's easier day to day than trying to explain. Most things the abuser does are so small, apparently insignificant that tryong to get anyone to see it is virtually impossible -or you think it is. They also tend to undermine you, tell you that your friends all think you're mad or bad, they make a fool out of you if you try to involve anyone else and generally make your life a misery, especially if you're also financially dependent on them; that's something they will try to bring out fairly early on. Isolation and financial dependence are basic tools of the abuser and once that's happened, well the victim has little chance.

I hope it's not abuse, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if it were.

He needs to spend some time in a normal home without her. Can you feign serious illness and desperately want to see him? Well, no, probably a bad idea, but try to think of some way to get him staying with you or your mum for a week or two and see how he goes.

AIBU is not the Board to post on for this. Try Relationships, and see if anyone there can help you with ideas on how to find out what's really going on, if he is a victim of abuse.

Yikes. Nothing to do with you, all hearsay and second hand gossip. Why would you think you get to judge?
I'd be embarrassed if a male relative of mine was a shit father, though. And be on his case about it.

"You can switch the sexes around and you're asking the same questions to countless women who have been in the same situation. "

Very few women run to the other end of the country and leave their children for someone they barely know. It sounds as though he wanted out of his life and parenting, so left. I know a man whose done it from Australia, but it's backfired because the woman he left for has had a baby to him. Now all of a sudden he needs to go back to his parents, but only after his ex had moved too far for regular visits.

You just have to be there for your brother.

We have had this with a close family member. He got together with a woman who, had a bit of a reputation as being domineering and obsessive. He wouldn't listen to anyone though and it very nearly drove a permanent wedge between him and his family. Unfortunately he's still with her and we very rarely see him now. However, she didn't achieve her goal of total separation of him from us.

If your brother's woman is the same 'type', then she will actively but subtly try to drive a wedge between you, especially if you ever disagree/challenge her on anything.

The way I deal with it is always to be civil to her regardless of what she tries to do to me, and steadfastly be there for him. That's all you can do really🤷🏻‍♀️