to think most people will work till they're dead and won't see retirement age?

[tugging]

Ok massive generalisation but I see a lot of people talking about how they're 40 or so and have 20 + years before they retire.

As a society, we're more sicker, more stressed and more busier than ever. These things would shorten your life expectancy. I can't imagine working till I'm nearly 70- I'm not even 40 and I'm already knackered! I think I'll be dead before I reach retirement age. I know so many people who have died before 60. They never got to retire and enjoy a work free life.

I know people can retire earlier but not many people have a decent pension that i know of and are forced to work till they're nearly 70 or till ill health.

[Waxonwaxoff0]

@Dashel

There is a movement called financial independence and retire early FIRE, I’m really into that and DH have made a number of financial sacrifices over the years to get into the strongest possible financial position. Including only having one car, living very frugally etc.

Many people in the FIRE community live well below their means in order to make additional payments to pensions and investments so that they can retire as early as possible.

Yes it helps if you don’t have DC and have a large income, but even if you don’t take it to the extreme, there are many interesting ideas and methodology. I think a danger for some of us is that we spend to our means and when we get payrises or bonuses we up our lifestyle, when we save, it is often in order to save like for a holiday, extension or new car.

Hard core FIRE people tend to live on rice and beans and drive an old car and use it as sparingly as possible and budget to within an inch of their life, not because they have to, but because they want to. I’m in the middle ground on this and we live on a lot less than we could, cheapest mobiles, no Sky, food Bill is sensible, no takeaways and meals out are rare, clothes budget is small and only if needed etc

It may sound a little unfun, but we are quite creative and we do travel when we can, but we are expecting to retire at 45 and 55 and neither of us is earning crazy money.

To be honest I'd rather work until 70 than live such a frugal life. I'm not well off at all but I'd rather experience life with DS and enjoy ourselves than put every single spare penny into my pension, tomorrow isn't guaranteed.

[Quillboard]

I think most of us want to live a comfortable retirement and not suffer from too much poor health.

You have to live for now as well... whilst you’re helpfully young and fittish.

Personally I’m obsessed with health and pension saving but like many I’m making up for lost time from both...

I’ve seen my parents (fittISH) struggle with fatigue from 65 whilst working full-time. We should have the cash they have and more - and hopefully be in better health. We certainly are more focused on both areas. But my kids are younger so that affects finances too.

Crossing my fingers I’ll be retiring 55- 60, and have plenty of hobbies and health to keep us going. I’m hoping a dose of positivity helps along the way.

I’m more worried about family members who don’t have the financial or health blessings that we have but I’m hoping they’ll get some inheritances they can fall back on.

A Tory government is shockingly unhelpful when it comes to diminished health so an inheritance might be the best they can hope for.

[Ofallthethings]

I get what you're saying about knowing lots of people who have died under 60 OP, but lots of people live much longer than that as the life expectancy is early 80's I think. Your personal experience is skewing your view slightly. Lots of people will get very old and have a long retirement but may not have a very good quality of life due to poor health which is what worries me. The last 10 years could just be sat in a chair watching tv too immobile to do anything, and also quite.lonely once OH has passed away and not able to go out.
I think a long retirement is overrated, and would prefer keep working but scale work back a bit and work part time and/ or move into a lower pressure area of work. I've seen too many people retire and just get really set in their ways and not really do anything with the time they've got left.

[osbertthesyrianhamster]

[quote rookiemere]@Dashel but some people live off rice and beans and drive an old car because they can't afford a new one. Early retirement is still only an option for those that can afford to fund it.

FWIW from our position of affluence we go down a middle path - holidays and days out now because who knows our life expectancy and we want DS to have an enjoyable childhood, but 3 star self catering and sandwiches sometimes so we can plough into pensions.

[/quote]
This. And fund it for 40+ years if you retire at 45? I know people who are multi-millionaires who didn't do that.

[vivainsomnia]

I agree fully OP. My biggest relief is the decisions I’ve made earlier in my life that will allow me to retire early.

In my 30s, I was ambitious, full of mental energy and thrived in the working environment that despite being a single mum of two. Then the 40s came, and gradually, I saw myself slowly slipping down. I still went up the rank, but despite feeling confident that I had the skills and knowledge as well as the will and desire to achieve high, my mind started to let me down, until the perimenopause hit me with a vengeance and everything went pear shape just like that. I couldn’t cope with half the stress I welcomed just 5 years earlier. I had to change jobs and go back two levels lower.

I’m now 53 and can just about cope with my current role knowing that it won’t be for much longer. My physical health is excellent but I just don’t have the mental energy to cope with a 5 days working week.

Thankfully, I am in a position that means I should be able to retire in 4 years. I hope that the menopause will ease and I will be in a position to still take on some form of work, but it will be under my conditions and only because I want to.

If someone has to me at 40 that in 10 years time I would be starting to count down the years to retirement I would never have believed them. Things can change so quickly.

[Meruem]

I see the state pension very differently to most people. I spent a few years as a single mum of 2 on benefits. I got less money to bring up my 2 kids, then a pensioner gets just for themselves. I believe it’s around £170 a week now (Jobseekers allowance is £70 a week to put it into proportion).. If you’re on state pension only you don’t pay council tax (which is one of the big bills). Right now as a working person (ignoring council tax) I pay around £40 p/w bills and around £40 p/w food. Those are my necessities. Take that from £170 and you’re still left with £90. No it isn’t a fortune but I know several working people who don’t have that as “disposable” each week. It won’t give you a luxury lifestyle by any means but in comparison to many other groups, low earners, unemployed etc it’s not that bad.

By 67 (as it currently is) most people will have either paid off their mortgage or they will be in rented. If they’re in rented they can get housing benefit for the full amount. If the rented is too expensive for the full rent to be paid there are schemes of older people’s housing that are cheaper and come within the limit of HB. Also easier to access as they are specifically for older age groups. My DSis is in her 40s and renting and she’s found a scheme you can apply to from 50 and that’s what she’ll be doing as it’s more secure and cheaper than private renting.

For me personally the one thing I like to do that requires excess cash is travelling. I’m in a job where you can just do a couple of days post retirement, I’ve had many colleagues do this. My reasoning is, if I’m healthy enough to travel, I’ll be healthy enough to work 2 days a week to pay for it. I know there will likely come a time where hanging around airports and getting onto planes no longer feels worth it. When I get to that stage I’ll likely give up working completely.

You have to remember average life expectancy is just that, average. The wealthy middle classes and above can usually give up work earlier and afford a better lifestyle. On average, they are the ones who live to 90+ and pull up the numbers. Just look at the Queen and Prince Phillip! In the poor areas life expectancy is lower than average and yes, those people will likely work until they die. We live in a very unequal society. And actually I think it is unfair that the poorest in our society have been penalised pension wise because those in a better position are living longer.

[ExConstance]

The views expressed on MN about what it is like being 65 or so make me smile. I am 64, nearly 65. I work full time, I'll retire next year. I am a manager in the care sector, so not easy.
I'm probably fitter than I have ever been, run, do yoga, back to the gym next week. I have no inhibitions about buying my clothes where younger people do and whilst I'm looking forward to a life I can fill with the things I really enjoy doing, being creative etc. I would in no way describe myself as "knackered"
When I look around at my friends we are all about the same, no one on a sad decline or not out enjoying life yet.
The good news is that life gets easier after your 40's, children grow up, mortgages get paid off and, inevitably, you get a bit better off.
I would not want to go back to my 40's again, two demanding young children, DH and I both involved in supporting our mothers, work still full of big challenges and a large mortgage to pay.
Once I'd hit my mid 50's and DS2 was at Uni life began to get so much better, hang on in there.

[Orangebug]

Hard to tell what it will look like for me. My grandparents were aged between 59 and 91 when they died (all from 'old age' reasons like a heart attack - not in an accident or something that can happen at any age) so I guess it depends whose genes I got! I have pretty good pension provision as I've been saving in employer schemes since age 25 (I'm now 47), so I should be able to retire before the state pension age.

[lidoshuffle]

I'm in my 60s so have experienced working life pre-IT revolution from the 70s as well as the techie current years.

What would scare me if I were younger is the way technology will replace people. I have a professional career that took years to quality in after my first degree, but there is techology on the horizon that will make people like me superfluous.

[Dashel]

A lot of millionaires lead millionaire type lifestyles and would want that in retirement, we don’t. We do lead a good life, I don’t need or want a new car every few years, I am happy to take a packed lunch to work and don’t need the two Costa Coffees a day a lot of colleagues seem to need. We don’t have expensive hobbies.

Mr Money Mustache is a good place to start if anyone wanted to read more.

[littlepeas]

I’m not interested in retiring tbh - it looks really boring! That said, I already have a fantastic work/life balance - I can see how retirement might be a more enticing prospect if your job is very stressful and/or dull.

[fartasapissed]

A good friend of mine is still working full time, six days a week. He's 79.

[AcornCups]

The we are sicker comment.

Really it’s because in the past we would have been dead, modern medicine has many of us alive who would have died multiple times. It’s also because overall we just live longer and wear out. People did still live to great ages but it was the exception. Those great ages sometimes bring chronic health conditions.

I retired at 50 due to ill health and my pension paid out with three years full pay and an ok pension amount. I did start my pension at 21 many moons ago when it was still relatively unusual. I thank my lucky stars I did. DH is 51 and doesn’t have any plans to retire very early yet but I’m working on this. I know three people in their late fifties who were offered redundancy, all ex work colleagues. They all took it but we worked in a sector with good pensions.

[Yawnthisway]

I find it really grating when people criticise
An average wage of £31k on a pension of 5% + employer 3% would put away £4K per year. That’s about £120k in a lifetime of work (on the basis they wouldn’t start on that salary) if I retired tomorrow with that pension pot it would get me about £4K per annum. £300 per month. So even with sensible saving etc not enough to live on. And that’s the average wage, half the country earns less than that. So can we not repeat the “avocados on toast” stereotype with pensions? Yes some people bury their head in sands but it’s not as simple as cutting your cloth, the cards are stacked against a lot of people.

[Yawnthisway]

First sentence meant to say criticise people for not putting more thought into pensions/retirement.

[osbertthesyrianhamster]

@Dashel

A lot of millionaires lead millionaire type lifestyles and would want that in retirement, we don’t. We do lead a good life, I don’t need or want a new car every few years, I am happy to take a packed lunch to work and don’t need the two Costa Coffees a day a lot of colleagues seem to need. We don’t have expensive hobbies.

Mr Money Mustache is a good place to start if anyone wanted to read more.

Nope, these people lead no such lifestyle; just think it's financially stupid to 'retire' that early because logically it's usually not sustainable for 30+ years, has no margin for circumstance change that can come with age.

Nothing to do with new cars or Costas . The usual guff and patronising generalisation that people's inability to save is the result of moral failings and excess (hence, talk about new cars and Costa coffees). So tedious and erroneous.

[Shedbuilder]

@tugging

Ok massive generalisation but I see a lot of people talking about how they're 40 or so and have 20 + years before they retire.

As a society, we're more sicker, more stressed and more busier than ever. These things would shorten your life expectancy. I can't imagine working till I'm nearly 70- I'm not even 40 and I'm already knackered! I think I'll be dead before I reach retirement age. I know so many people who have died before 60. They never got to retire and enjoy a work free life.

I know people can retire earlier but not many people have a decent pension that i know of and are forced to work till they're nearly 70 or till ill health.

Inheritance is the key. My partner hasn't and never will inherit anything: farming family and the eldest boy has already inherited the farm, the farmhouse and all the money in exchange for housing and providing a small income for his parents.

On the other hand I know several people who have been able to retire early after inheriting from grandparents, childless aunts and uncles and even neighbours. Someone in my social circle told me casually the other day that their recently-deceased godfather had left them £32,000 in his will and then went on to say they'd actually expected more — apparently their godmother had left them more than £100,000.

So many of my friends and contacts in their 50s, are very comfortably off as a result of a trickle of inheritances received throughout their lives. Some don't need to work, others have hobby jobs to keep things ticking over until the really big payment comes when their parents die.

Top tip for ensuring your children inherit loads: get comfortably-off single people to be godparents and divorce and remarry a couple of times. The more elderly people in your children's lives (their dad, their first step-dad, their second step-dad, their grandparents, step-grandparents, step-aunties and uncles), the more chance of them inheriting. I'm joking, but from a financial pov it clearly pays off.

[osbertthesyrianhamster]

@Yawnthisway

I find it really grating when people criticise
An average wage of £31k on a pension of 5% + employer 3% would put away £4K per year. That’s about £120k in a lifetime of work (on the basis they wouldn’t start on that salary) if I retired tomorrow with that pension pot it would get me about £4K per annum. £300 per month. So even with sensible saving etc not enough to live on. And that’s the average wage, half the country earns less than that. So can we not repeat the “avocados on toast” stereotype with pensions? Yes some people bury their head in sands but it’s not as simple as cutting your cloth, the cards are stacked against a lot of people.

It gives the privileged one the warm fuzzies to point fingers at others and claim moral superiority at their good fortune rather than accept the reality that a huge and increasing swathe of the population are living paycheque to paycheque through no fault of their own and with nothing to cut back on.

Or the reality that the gender pay cap costs women a lot not just in wages but pensions.

This reality is already apparent in N. America. Many cannot live on the state pension alone.

[rookiemere]

Yes to inheritance. I'm an only DC and it's unlikely although possible at my DPs age that it will all be eroded in care home fees so I am likely to inherit something.

Both DH and I inherited goodly lump sums from childless relatives which helped whittle down the mortgage enormously

However I'm making my retirement planning assumptions on the basis I don't inherit anything as it's more sensible just in case.

[CounsellorTroi]

I was lucky to be able to retire shortly before my 58th birthday on a voluntary early severance package. I think my lifestyle is healthier now than it was when I was sitting at a desk all day 9-5 5 days a week. I exercise more, do gardening etc and have time to cook properly.

[Meruem]

This is because a lot of people on MN are high earners and if others aren’t earning as much, well it’s their own fault for not working “hard enough”. In actual fact, I got a decent job because I live in London and was able to access multiple opportunities that got me there (although I don’t earn huge amounts!). My DSis is on minimum wage in a deprived part of Cornwall, because the opportunities just haven’t been there for her. (We both grew up there but I moved away). She works a damn sight harder than I do ! I can tell you. She’s on her feet all day during the week, picks up extra work cleaning on weekends. I couldn’t do everything she does.

Now I know some will say “well why didn’t she move too”. But even there I had help. I lived with my dad who was abusive and social services hooked me up with a scheme that existed back then to help people in my position (too old to be in care, too young to just fend for myself). They provided me with a job and accommodation in another part of the country, all costs paid etc. My DSis lived with my mum who booted her out at 16 and did leave her to fend for herself. She ended up moving into her boyfriends family home.

Unfortunately we weren’t in contact (again this was down to our parents) so I didn’t know all this till later. So I couldn’t help her at the time. Anyway she later got married there (now divorced) and they had dc so initially she didn’t feel she could move and take them away from their dad. Now years later she has grandchildren and understandably wants to be near them and her dc, especially after our upbringing.

The way my story relates to this thread, is that people shouldn’t be so damn judgemental about why people don’t have good jobs, don’t have big pension pots etc. There’s a lot more too it and it’s not that they just didn’t try hard enough.

[vivainsomnia]

@meruem, you have completely left out that even if you’ve paid your mortgage, as a home owner, you still have many house associated costs. Repairs, maintenance, these are expensive and will certainly eat quite a bit into the £170. Even as tenants, you have to replace items.

Add a reliable car and its maintenance and you’ve left with almost nothing.

@ExConstance, it’s great that at 64, you feel the way you do. Have you always worked FT? Have you managed well through the menopause? I think it’s great to offer a balance view, but it’s fair to also point out that those you’d least expect to struggle might be the one who have no choice but to give up employment early.

[rookiemere]

@Meruem totally agree. I know I'm incredibly fortunate to have been born middle class and be of an age where retirement at 60 is financially viable.

It really grinds my gears when my DPs refuse to acknowledge that their financial wealth is mostly due to luck at having great employer pensions and owning property at the right time. Instead they like to think it's down to financial prudence- which to a degree it is - but don't acknowledge that for some it would be impossible to accumulate as much no matter how hard they work.

[TwoAndAnOnion]

People really do 'ostrich' about money. Few understand what a mortgage really means, what a pension is or how a credit card interest is calculated.

When the state pension first came out average age was 69 for men; people were expected to live approx 4-5 years post-retirement, thus NI contributions were pitched accordingly.

The average age of death is now 81, retirement has moved to 67, so that is still 14 years of retirement. NI contributions havent raised sufficiently to cover that .

Secondly, recent calculations I read, project a private pension needs 370K in the pot to give a projected pension of 21Kpa. That's an enormous chunk of your salary to put away.

Most peoples assets are property - but what if you are renting? What if you don't inherit? What if your spare cash is sucked away in child care?

[lidoshuffle]

@Yawnthisway

I find it really grating when people criticise
An average wage of £31k on a pension of 5% + employer 3% would put away £4K per year. That’s about £120k in a lifetime of work (on the basis they wouldn’t start on that salary) if I retired tomorrow with that pension pot it would get me about £4K per annum. £300 per month. So even with sensible saving etc not enough to live on. And that’s the average wage, half the country earns less than that. So can we not repeat the “avocados on toast” stereotype with pensions? Yes some people bury their head in sands but it’s not as simple as cutting your cloth, the cards are stacked against a lot of people.

But that doesn't allow for the value increasing with share growth - compounded over 40 odd years that will be a lot more than £120k. Also a "lifetime of work" is more likely to be 45-50 years, not 30.