To think, without upsetting anybody, we are massively overpopulated on this tiny Island??? What sensible non punitive solutions are there??

[PasstheBucket89]

Its pretty relevant with all the talk about migrant boats, priti patel saying she will make the passage unviable etc she has done some awful things, it makes my blood run cold tbh i doubt she cares about the safety of them in that boats. But, what di we do, and when suggestions are made its often motivated by hate not quality of life issues. And yes, the ageing massively adds to the overpopulation aswell, but what should we do? reasonably? this tiny Island is massively overpopulated, it doesn't benefit anyone to be crammed in like sardines like this, massively effects access to housing, healthcare, education etc, What should the gov do, not adding to the hostile environment??.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

It’s quite rare to be a self supporting country isn’t it.
The opposite is the case. Most countries are self supporting or produce surplus food. That’s how Britain is able to feed itself, by importIng two thirds the food it needs (this includes the need to import feed for farm animals) from countries with surplus, mostly EU countries.

[titchy]

[quote imissthesouth]@Brefugee
How would the opposition improve the situation? Kill off all the old people or get a magic money tree to save our NHS? [/quote]
Increase taxation of the rich, stop corporates being allowed to pay no tax, a decent welfare system, decent healthcare and education, staffed by professionals who are respected by the general pubic and paid properly. Cancel Brexit....

Over population is not the issue. Selfishness and shitty management of resources are the issue. And they're things government should sort out. The uk is one of the richest countries in the world. We have no excuse.

[EustaciaPieface]

Have you never seen the Billy Connolly clip, OP? “There’s nobody here!!!!!”

[Pepperwort]

The decision to not be or even try to be self-sufficient in food is a political one. We (as in the governments we democratically elect) have chosen to import food rather than produce it here. So if that is the scientific definition then we have deliberately chosen “overpopulation”

That's an interesting idea. We are using all the land available, and as Plan says, can still feed only a fraction. How is that political?

It would be more true if the inability to provide the calorie requirements of the population were a recent thing - but it isn't.

This is what politicians refer to when they say that we are a trading nation. We have to trade, it is not a choice.

[Livelovebehappy]

sansasnark the people who have come on the boats across the channel yesterday and today cannot speak English. They had to bring in translators to interview them. They need to stay in the first ‘safe’ country they reach.

[SansaSnark]

I do also agree there are huge political and economic factors that affect how farmland is used in the UK. The fact that we have made life really quite economically difficult for (some) farmers over the years probably has a lot to do with how little of our own food we produce. If there was some kind of national strategy around food security, we could probably produce a lot more of our own food.

I don't know if we could be self-sufficient, but I don't think we can use the current situation prove we are overpopulated by that measure.

[somm]

Housing (if you can call it that, when you see what's being thrown up) is already being built on the green belt because planning laws were altered to allow developers to build on land that previously wasn't available to them. I agree with Redcup that we're 'overpopulated in terms of resouces'. However there's still plenty of land available to be built on and, with the latest planning regulations about to be passed, it will be. In my small city we have many developments springing up; mainly for students and holiday makers. And we have small pieces of land with planning permission to throw up lots of accommodation. Often plans submitted include eg social housing, care home, pharmacy, police station; permission is granted, and than they can do what they like after that, which is generally just 'housing'. I don't blame this on people wanting to make a life in this country. I blame it on a goverment which is funded by developers and other rich donors

[DdraigGoch]

[quote SandieCheeks]@DdraigGoch how about using 400,000 unused homes?[/quote]
What does housing supply matter when we can't produce enough food to feed everyone anyway without pillaging the world's rainforests for spare land?

[Insideout99]

We are not overpopulated. We live unsustainably

[titchy]

@TaxTheRatFarms

To not be overpopulated, you must be able to feed the existing population with food (plant or animal) farmed on the island

That’s interesting (genuinely!). I was idly wondering what the “official” definition is. Now I’m idly wondering which countries aren’t overpopulated by that standard. It’s quite rare to be a self supporting country isn’t it.

Yes it's an interesting definition!

However I wonder if it's a little simplistic. I suspect we could feed ourselves if we had to. But it wouldn't be food that we currently want to eat. Farmers produce stuff that sells. If they grew stubble or turnip rather than, I don't know, spinach, that would make us more sustainable. But spinach sells, stubble's only used to feed livestock!

[PlanDeRaccordement]

As for solutions, not my place to say as I am in France. Except I would be sad to see British wildlife go extinct. As an example, the British hedgehog was just added to endangered species list as vulnerable to extinction. So whatever is decided, it would be better for the wildlife if some green space areas were left and not built on. The new planning law will usher in a Wild West of rampant new builds wherever developers please.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

I suspect we could feed ourselves if we had to. But it wouldn't be food that we currently want to eat.

No, you can’t. Haven’t been able to since the Crimean War. Certainly by WWI it was past of point of no return to be self sustaining, hence the international food aid during WWII that prevented famine.

Most animal feed is imported already so it’s not a question of what is growing.

[Pepperwort]

As I said, somebody must have full numbers crunched somewhere. But our current inability to be self sufficient in food is not economic, nothing to do with farmers' livelihoods. You cannot change it by changing the colour of ties.

We have about 65 - 68 million people here. The island has just over 60 million acres. Much of that is not arable land - if you know anything of settlement patterns in the present or past you'll know good arable country is concentrated in the east and south sides of the country. The west of England makes good dairy country, much of the rest is only suitable for sheep. You cannot feed 65 million people from this island, no matter what your political persuasion or political set up. The best hope I've seen in this regard is the development of vertical farming, but it isn't well advanced technologically as far as I'm aware, let alone economically.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@Pepperwort
Well said. Exactly right. Doesn’t matter who is in charge, you cannot make yield from farms triple what they are now and there is no land that can be made into farms (without knocking down housing estates).

[Pepperwort]

Can we rejoin the EU now?

[DdraigGoch]

@Thneedville

Who has been in a plane over the south east of England in the last decade? It’s green, it’s fields and woodland. It’s always a shock to me because it doesn’t feel that way on the ground, because of our under investment in infrastructure, including public transport, and because the towns and villages are crammed into small spaces.

As to why migrants go to great lengths to get to the U.K. - imagine you had to leave the U.K. because of war. You’ve got to Mexico. You know no one. You don’t speak Spanish, so you can’t hope to find work. You’re living in a camp. You’re so close to the US border you can see it. You have family in the US, a network of support from other people from your community/religion. You speak the language. You can make contact with people who can find you work and help you navigate the system. What lengths do you think you’d go to? Not just for you but for your family.

It always astonishes me when people use the "but I saw some green stuff from a plane" argument to claim that the UK isn't overpopulated. Farmland isn't wasteland, it feeds the country. Woodland isn't wasteland, it is the lungs of the earth. The only land which provides little function is remote moorland which you wouldn't build on anyway. The UK has circa 66 million people. It could only sustainably support 17 million. The entire planet is overpopulated and we are the worst offenders.

[DishingOutDone]

So as OP said in the title she doesn't want to upset anyone, I presume she is proposing some form of euthanasia or birth control for the adult population of the UK - because that would probably be quite unpopular, not a vote winner.

Blaming people crossing the channel in inflatable boats, on the other hand, seems exactly the sort of thing the Government would like. I reckon they'll go for that ... oh, hang on ....

[hungrywalrus]

If the British government carries on as it has been for the last few years, plenty of people will be leaving on their own accord. Housing prices are already dropping fast in some areas. Be careful what you wish for.

[JenandFlo]

This island is massively overpopulated. We are running out of space.

The figures above are misleading. Not all land can be built on - mountains, lakes, shoreline, floodplains.

Roughly 30% of the UK is designated Sites of Special Scientific Interest. These unique areas are already under massive threat of development.

Building on farmland is a terrifying prospect. It makes us massively dependent on imports with the environmental and political risks; we can no longer support the population of the UK as it is.

[TableFlowerss]

The poor migrants that risk their lives on those boats? Must be desperate to get here to even consider the journey.

What I struggle to understand however, is why they risk lives to get here to presumably claim asylum - when they could claim asylum in several countries before they even get to France? Why not stay in France?

They clearly are desperate and from war torn countries and I completely understand why they’d want to get away from their horrific living environment, but again, they cross several counties on the way.....

[Arthersleep]

Well, we are currently the most densely populated country in 'Europe' (430ish people per square km). In recent years (the 2010s) the population has risen by a record 4.6%. in terms of population, we are set to overtake France by 2030 and Germany by 2047, despite having considerably less land mass. Part of the problem in larger cities esp, is that we have enormous physical restrictions on increasing infrastructure provision. What were once houses are now flats/bedsits and Houses of Multiple occupation. So population density has increased, esp in cities, but there simply is n't the ability to widen roads, build new schools/hospitals etc. And we need to massively increase the amount of forest to combat climate change and also preserve agricultural land. People don't want to pay higher taxes. Our taxes are higher than many other westernised countries, although we do of course have free healthcare. If we keep on expanding cities, then we continually increase commuting times etc. No one wants new developments/cities in the greenbelt. I am a regional/city planner and we certainly are continuously expanding and look set to do so for the foreseeable future. However, people (esp professionals) are starting to have smaller families as women pursue careers and leave starting a family until later, often as a result of the high cost of housing caused by increasing population. So there is an adjustment there. The National office of Statistics is a useful source of info. London has grown massively in the last 20 years and had a very large and sudden change in demographics, with some areas being massively overpopulated. Personally I think that people should be encouraged to have no more than two children each, esp given the repercussions on the climate. And also be encouraged to work from home more and consume less.

[kerfuffling]

@AntiHop

But we're not over populated. Some cities are overcrowded yes, but overall we have a huge amount of unused space.

It is used. Where do you think food comes from?

[SchrodingersImmigrant]

Well, we are currently the most densely populated country in 'Europe' (430ish people per square km). In recent years (the 2010s) the population has risen by a record 4.6%.
That's England only. If you add the rest of the UK we are not the most densely populated in Europe

[TaxTheRatFarms]

The opposite is the case. Most countries are self supporting or produce surplus food

Thanks Plan I’m learning a lot tonight! Now off to google vertical farming, as the reality is probably not as much fun as I’m imagining!

(And if the UK had to feed itself - I’m in prime turnip, potato, onion and chicken country. Oh lord.)

[SchrodingersImmigrant]

Anyone has numbers for UK without London?🤔