To think not all 'whataboutery' is evil

[NotMyNicknames]

I've NC for this as I know the title could get some people's back up but please listen to my explanation. I also wanted to post in chat but couldn't find it so am stuck here in AIBU.

I am not talking about people who reply to BLM with ALM. Or when people say ‘but a black man shoved me and called me a white bitch’.

I'm talking about as an Indian woman living in Britain, being told to shut up about my experiences of racism because 'now is black people's time' despite the fact that these same people say 'you can't tell someone who's been oppressed for hundreds of years when the right time is to speak up about their oppression'.

For some examples

Being told I'm stealing black people's spotlight when I say all ethnic history needs to be taught, including the colonisation of India, as well as black history. I'm signing all the petitions saying introduce black history into the curriculum, I totally agree with this. But I don't want to see this introduced and people say 'racism is solved now' without some acknowledgement of my history and the history of my people as well.

Similarly with the calls to bring down the statue of Churchill 'because he was a racist'. I totally agree. Yet when someone asks about how and I begin to explain about Churchill's starvation of India and the mass famine he induced I was told not to by someone who said the important things to focus on were his racist quotes about black people because now is about BLM so the focus should be on bringing down Churchill's statue for that. Yet when people say 'what else did he do' the famine is brought up. I feel both tokenised and silenced by some BLM activists. If the Churchill statue comes down I damn well want it in the history books that part of the reason is that finally people started to take notice of the millions he essentially killed in India, to ignore this would be erasing my and my families history.

I have no problem with black people who want to focus their campaign and efforts on their oppression, it’s what most affects them and is close to their hearts. As an Indian person I absolutely concentrate my efforts on campaigning about issues that affect Indian people and are close to my heart whilst also doing what I can to support the BLM movement. I understand completely that not everyone can focus 100% of their efforts into every injustice in the world. But when BLM activists (this grate particularly with white ones but it has been said to me by black people too) go ‘we need to teach about black history and Churchill’s racism in school’ I go ‘yes absolutely, and don’t forget to also teach about his racism and starvation of Indian people’ and then get shouted down for whataboutery I do feel silenced.

I want to work towards a world and a way of ending all racism and I understand the black people in particular experience it horrifically, but I really don’t think you can end racism by only allowing one race’s experiences of it to be spoken about and shouting down anyone who brings up their experiences of racism, until it conveniently supports your own argument too (e.g. Churchill).

[Shinesweetfreedom]

Blimey op I did not know about the starvation.I am going to look into that

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Ha I'm not Woke anything . No one's trying to ' silence' you . Op asked am I being unreasonable I just gave you my answer , I'm not anythingist , I treat people with respect.
Why do you find it so difficult to empathise with black people of USA . Why is this suddenly about you , it was George Floyd that died here now today , not 60 years ago. Are you in fact racist ?

[PlanDeRaccordement]

I understand that other races have been treated appallingly but I do not think any other race has been treated either in the past or now as badly as black people have been

Only if you think the slavery of 15 million Africans is worse than the genocide of 56 million Native Americans. Oh, and the death rates for Native Americans from police brutality is higher than for black people.

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Fith , who the hell am I earning woke points from , no one has a clue who I am ?
I don't need to earn anything from anyone , a question was asked I gave what I took to be a reasoned answer

[FithColumnist]

@Giraffesnmeerkats - why do you think I am specifically referring to you? I’m just talking about my experience of the loudest “shut up other minorities” proponents of BLM on SM.

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Plan , oh dear god , no . But am I the only person that thanks the black people of USA have been treated so utterly badly. It's not top trumps for fucks sake . I have no reason to be more empathetic for black people than any other oppressed group .

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Fith , could have something to do with there being only thee and me here !

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

THINKS

[PlanDeRaccordement]

@Giraffesnmeerkats

Plan , oh dear god , no . But am I the only person that thanks the black people of USA have been treated so utterly badly. It's not top trumps for fucks sake . I have no reason to be more empathetic for black people than any other oppressed group .

So Giraffe,
Do you also withdraw your other statement
Have you educated yourself about indigenous North Americans , and Aboriginal people . Truly horrific all of them , but I still hand on heart think that the black slave trade and ultimate treatment of black people in the USA is worse

As well? Because you are clearly wrong unless you think that 1 black slave is a worse atrocity than killing a Native American family of 4, kids and all.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

I agree it’s not top trumps, but you should not go around saying that black people have been treated worse than “Native Americans” or “all other races” when that is simply not true.

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Plan , you just don't get it do you
It's not about numbers for god's sake.
It's about the way they were / are treated.
Ever heard of segregation , apartied , hanging whipping , beating , burning , Klu Klux Kla
Do you think that I've never heard of the indigenous North Americans or that a 66 year old chief was brutalised only the other week
And your comment about one black slave being worth more than a family of 4 Indigenous Americans is beyond sick

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Who says it's not true ? In my opinion it is .If you don't agree so be it.

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

And at least the native Americans have had some form of an apology and recompense , albeit small , so at least an acknowledgement.

[Flyingagainstreason]

@Giraffesnmeerkats

I think you’re a bit all over the place here. You personally think that black people in the US have been treated the worst. But that statement is not a fact and it’s just an opinion.
And what are you banging on about with regards to @PlanDeRaccordement statement!? They gave actual factual figures, or could you not understand what they were trying to say.

But anyway, you have an opinion and that opinion is valid, but it doesn’t trump everyone else’s valid opinion either. That’s the whole point about this thread!

[Sometimeswinning]

Unfortuantly its comments like @Giraffesnmeerkats that wont help with the cause. You've already got people shouting All lives matter and white lives matter. To have someone say there is no room on the platform for any other oppression is wrong and not your place to decide.

[Mimishimi]

YANBU. I completely agree! My background is bog Irish and we have experienced so much grief from the same power structures that have oppressed others as well. Churchill was the one who sent Black and Tans over to Ireland. We are still upset about the circumstances in Ireland which forced so many of us to emigrate. The decimation of the population which has only just now recovered to pre-famine levels and isn't even a quarter of what it was estimated to be before the Norman invasions. People laugh at the latter as though we ought not to be upset about something that occurred 800 years ago but it has been 800 years of war after war after war. The penal laws - banning of language, culture, religion. The laundries, the disappearances, the state sponsored funding of terrorism through dodgy intelligence agencies. This type are still trying to do that to others too! I do think the BLM movement is important but so are our lives and our experiences under these people even though we are 'nominally' white. I say nominally because for a long time we were considered not quite.

"And you dare call me a terrorist,
as you look down your gun
When I think of all the things that you have done.
You have plundered many nations,
divided many lands.
You have terrorised their peoples,
you ruled with an iron hand.
And you brought this reign of terror to my land"

[wafflyversatile]

I have some sympathy for your position. I do sometimes think that in adverts for instance introducing diversity means having black people but nit people from any part of Asia or south america etc. There are more documentaries about the black experience it seems. Not to say there shouldn't be these documentaries etc but there should be for others too I think I remember seeing one documentary in the last decade about waves of immigration from south Asia.

However there is a 'moment' happening right now that is centred around institutional racism, police brutality etc towards black people specifically. If you were talking at an event about racism towards asians and I kept going on about how the tories are also disablist you would maybe get a little annoyed.

[Hearhoovesthinkzebras]

Op, I completely agree with you.

When this first happened I thought the campaign was to end racism but it now just seems to be pitting everyone against everyone else. If people are fighting for systematic reviews then why wouldn't it be with the aim of removing systemic racism towards anyone?

Interestingly the BBC yesterday were talking about £100 million pounds over three years to increase diversity within its workforce so they don't seem to be concentrating solely on black people.

I don't understand why the campaign isn't against racism - against all BAME people.

[Hearhoovesthinkzebras]

I'm really not meaning to be obtuse , but what about the Caste system of Indian culture ?
I'd like to hear the Ops thoughts on that .

Is this not the very definition of whataboutery?

What has this got to do with the op?

[wink1970]

OP your points are very valid and thank you for making me think about them.

Sorry your thread got derailed by Giraffe's whataboutery! She has at least shown perfect examples to supported your point though.

[Mittens030869]

Yes this is very much the moment for black people's voices to be heard. And for now, that's where the focus is, quite rightly.

Having said that, if you want to convince those Brits who hero worship the memory of Churchill that he was a racist, surely that is more likely to be achieved by talking about the whole picture? I mean, I didn't know much about the oppression by famine of the Indian people. (I did know that he hated Ghandi.)

Also, don't forget the saying 'divide and rule'. If you continue to argue 'top trumps' as to whether black or Indian people suffered most, you won't succeed in changing the hero worshipping white Brits that the Churchill statue should come down.

[Everanewbie]

The Japanese caused the Bengal famine as a result of their invasion of Burma. Without Churchill's intervention the famine would likely have been worse. He was in the middle of conducting a war against the Nazis and the Japanese. I get what you're saying about racism and that Asian voices and experiences should not me sidelined, but this narrative about Churchill starving the Indians is at best about a tenth of the story, and at worst, lies.