To think not all 'whataboutery' is evil

[NotMyNicknames]

I've NC for this as I know the title could get some people's back up but please listen to my explanation. I also wanted to post in chat but couldn't find it so am stuck here in AIBU.

I am not talking about people who reply to BLM with ALM. Or when people say ‘but a black man shoved me and called me a white bitch’.

I'm talking about as an Indian woman living in Britain, being told to shut up about my experiences of racism because 'now is black people's time' despite the fact that these same people say 'you can't tell someone who's been oppressed for hundreds of years when the right time is to speak up about their oppression'.

For some examples

Being told I'm stealing black people's spotlight when I say all ethnic history needs to be taught, including the colonisation of India, as well as black history. I'm signing all the petitions saying introduce black history into the curriculum, I totally agree with this. But I don't want to see this introduced and people say 'racism is solved now' without some acknowledgement of my history and the history of my people as well.

Similarly with the calls to bring down the statue of Churchill 'because he was a racist'. I totally agree. Yet when someone asks about how and I begin to explain about Churchill's starvation of India and the mass famine he induced I was told not to by someone who said the important things to focus on were his racist quotes about black people because now is about BLM so the focus should be on bringing down Churchill's statue for that. Yet when people say 'what else did he do' the famine is brought up. I feel both tokenised and silenced by some BLM activists. If the Churchill statue comes down I damn well want it in the history books that part of the reason is that finally people started to take notice of the millions he essentially killed in India, to ignore this would be erasing my and my families history.

I have no problem with black people who want to focus their campaign and efforts on their oppression, it’s what most affects them and is close to their hearts. As an Indian person I absolutely concentrate my efforts on campaigning about issues that affect Indian people and are close to my heart whilst also doing what I can to support the BLM movement. I understand completely that not everyone can focus 100% of their efforts into every injustice in the world. But when BLM activists (this grate particularly with white ones but it has been said to me by black people too) go ‘we need to teach about black history and Churchill’s racism in school’ I go ‘yes absolutely, and don’t forget to also teach about his racism and starvation of Indian people’ and then get shouted down for whataboutery I do feel silenced.

I want to work towards a world and a way of ending all racism and I understand the black people in particular experience it horrifically, but I really don’t think you can end racism by only allowing one race’s experiences of it to be spoken about and shouting down anyone who brings up their experiences of racism, until it conveniently supports your own argument too (e.g. Churchill).

[NotMyNicknames]

@AuntyRigsby

Whether or not what I've described is 'whataboutery' by definition that's what I've been accused of by the people telling me not to talk about it.

[Stressing]

No Not I'm saying that. It's an example of butwhataboutery.

[Wishforsnow]

The way I have seen whataboutery mainly used is by anyone who can't stand debate or are so woke in their views another viewpoint will be simply disregarded by using this word

[NotMyNicknames]

@Stressing

If you think you can play devils advocate or 'consider a different point of view' on 3 million people's unnecessary death, no actually - systematic murders, you are a horrible racist psychopathic person.

[isitfridayyet1]

OP sorry but your statement 'black people cant seem to do the same' in regards to showing empathy for your plight is problematic in that you are doing the exact same thing you accused one of the previous posters did. You've grouped ALL black people as one entity with one voice.
There are many voices, differences of opinions and points of view within the black community and it is wrong to generalise.

[NotMyNicknames]

@isitfridayyet1

You are absolutely right. I apologise for that statement. I am incredibly angry about all racism and beyond frustrated at being silenced but I was wrong for that comment. I should have said 'some black people (and some white people) cant seem to do the same', and that it what I mean. sadly some of those people also seem to be the most vocal ones who are shouting me down constantly.

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Op I totally understand where you are coming from with regard to the starvation of your families I feel the same about my Irish ancestors in Ireland in the 1800s and the way in which working class people have been treated in England . But , I know a little bit about the appalling treatment that black people have suffered throughout history and especially in the USA Yesterday I watched a programme on TV about Martin Luther King and others in the 1960s trying then to be heard Not a thing has changed for black people. As a white woman I am afraid that I truly agree that this is black people's time . I understand that other races have been treated appallingly but I do not think any other race has been treated either in the past or now as badly as black people have been . I am sorry that any one is treated badly for what ever reason , wouldn't it be wonderful if hatred and prejudice could stop . But it IS our black people's time .

[NotMyNicknames]

@Giraffesnmeerkats

So despite trying to raise awareness of Churchill's crimes against Indian people for years, but never being listened to because 'he was a great man who won us the war', now that Churchill as a racist is finally getting noticed I'm not allowed to point out that he also systematically murdered 3 million of my ancestors?

You said it yourself that you are white, you may understand what it's like to know about crimes against your ancestors but you have no idea of the prejudice I and people like me experience every day because of the colour of our skin. Yet we're not allowed to speak about this because right now a larger minority are talking about the prejudices they experience for the colour of their skin.

I understand that other races have been treated appallingly but I do not think any other race has been treated either in the past or now as badly as black people have been .

Have you done any research? Made any effort to educate yourself on the oppression and horrific treatment of any other race except black people? You say you think but do you actually know based on sound research, fact and education?

I'm not asking black people to shut up, or stop, or do anything less than what they are doing and want to do to fight their battle, just asking that by pushing for the recognition of their oppression and history they make sure they aren't erasing mine and many others like me in the process.

This is how erasure happens, the group with the loudest and most voices (historically white peoples but now black people are finally being heard too which is a good thing) gets heard and listened too and every other minority gets forgotten about because the masses have been appeased.

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Op , Educate myself , blimey . How rude of you.
I did say that I fully appreciate the racism that Indian people have suffered , but at this moment in time it's about black people
Have you actually ' educated ' your self about the slavery and systematic police brutality against black people in the USA ?

[NotMyNicknames]

@Giraffesnmeerkats
Do not gaslight me, or put words in my moth, not once did I order you to educate yourself. And I am not rude, it is recommended that everyone educate themselves right now in order to recognise their own privilege and empathise with other suffering.

I asked if you have educated yourself on the oppression of all races because in order to be anti-racist, you have to be anti all racism, not just racism against black people, that is fact. That is not rude. So have you educated yourself on these issues too?

You may 'appreciate' the racism that Indian people and people of other races have suffered but do you have any idea how this racism manifests itself? The extent of it? The history of it? The implications that this history still has to this day?

Can you tell me anything about how Churchill essentially enslaved Indian people to grow crops for the British and then wouldn't even let them keep enough to stop themselves starving? Instead hoarding them for the British to the point that there was so much excess that tons rotted whilst Indian people starved?

Can you tell me anything about how British robbed Bangladesh if it's wealth and is responsible for its such high levels of poverty even today, do you know why?

Do you know anything about the police brutality Pakistani people still face in England to this day? The level may not be as high as in the 1980's but it's still uncomfortably relevant.

So when are Indian people allowed to talk about their oppression? When 1, 5, 30 of us get murdered in racially motivated attacks? Because we have been trying for year and no one wants to listen because no one wants to hear about racism. And even now when people are opening up to hear about it they only want to hear about the racism black people experience.

Yes I have and continue to educate myself on the slave trade, police brutality, the system keeping black peoples out of positions of power ect. Not only do I educate myself but I actively support the mitigation and ending of it when and where I can. But i also actively campaign for the recognition of other races because so many white people have joined the BLM movement but don't seem to care about the rest of us, we are the only one fighting for our voices and rights or who even seem to care about them.

[unstableunicorn]

I was actually discussing this exact topic today. As a British Bangladeshi woman with an Indian grandmother, I too had to learn about Churchill and the famine from my family as opposed to school and was in fact told off and shut down for mentioning it there. It sickens me to see him hailed as a war hero. And I've actually been told by people when speaking about BLM that 'it's not my fight' which is upsetting to hear as a fellow minority trying to show support. So I understand your anger, trust me, I really do.

That said, I really don't think BLM is trying to oppress south asian voices, trying to be heard and draw attention to issues black people face is not the same as putting down and erasing other minority experiences (with the exception of a few ignorant people like the ones you and I have faced). BLM is aiming to challenge systemic racism, which will affect all minorities. Thing is, I'm not saying we don't have our own issues (I've heard enough terrorism jokes for starters) but I honestly do think the extent of racism black people face is greater, even within other minorities. I've seen so much racism towards black people within the south asian community for starters, there's a lot of anti-black attitudes there. Even things like skin lightening which suggest being darker is undesirable. Police brutality disproportionately affects black people more than Asians. Even when it comes to stereotypes, Asians are often stereotyped as a 'model minority' - law abiding lawyers and doctors, or old fashioned and nerdy. No stereotype is good but those are socially acceptable unlike common stereotypes of black people as drug dealers and 'ghetto'. I'm not taking sides. It infuriates me to no end that it feels like south asians are the 'invisible minority' in terms of racism and the media and representation. I can't wait for a spotlight on the issues we face. But right now, this is a movement provoked by the murder of a black man and police brutality caused by systemic racism. It's natural for most of the focus to be on racism towards black people, and in time that awareness will be extended to other minorities too by shining a light on racism and discrimination as a whole. It's easier to break it down and focus on one at a time I guess? I think Asians will get our moment, it's not that people only care about anti black racism but right now that happens to be the issue being highlighted. Sorry if I've taken your post the wrong way, it's late and I might've gone off track. But honestly, I totally get your frustration

[unstableunicorn]

Oops, didn't realise I wrote so much! Excuse my inarticulate midnight waffling

[Goosefoot]

Yes, it's usually a way of not having to deal with the point someone is making.

I remember reading a newspaper article once where the writer was suggesting that there was a tendency, caused by sexism, for men to tell women what to eat, because she had experience this and some other people she asked had as well.

In the comments under the article, quite a few men said they had experienced just the same thing from women who tried to tell them what to eat. Also a number of women said other older women did this to them.

They were accused again and again of "whataboutery" which simply failed to recognise what they were saying. It was not "what about men" or "what about women who do this too" it was "this seems to be a behaviour that affects both sexes and is perpetrated by both sexes, and so may not be caused by male sexism against women." It was suggesting that the category of male/female was not the relevant category behind the behaviour. Which is a totally logical and valid possibility which the writer had not accounted for in asking only other women for their experiences with men.

But because a some people thought it fit the whataboutery pattern they didn't even stop to think about it.

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Yes , I hear what you are saying loud and clear .Have you educated yourself about indigenous North Americans , and Aboriginal people . Truly horrific all of them , but I still hand on heart think that the black slave trade and ultimate treatment of black people in the USA is worse . Have you read about the way the Irish were treated , the way poor women and children were treated in England in the past?
I still believe that black people were treated worse. I don't know as much as you about the treatment of you forbears , as much as you know about mine I suspect. But I still do not think that they were/are treated as badly as black people in the USA. You tell me of any South Asian person who has been murdered in the same way as George Floyd was .

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Unstable unicorn puts it very eloquently

[unstableunicorn]

@Giraffesnmeerkats Cheers, glad it didn't completely come out as incoherent rambling!

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

And gas light you Op , what in heaven are you talking about ?

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Unstable unicorn , your welcome😃

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

You're even

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

And , I never thought much of Churchil and his ilk anyway , supposed war hero or not. And to be fair it was the likes of my great uncle who was tortured and killed in a Japanese prisoner of war camp and the many other millions who died or were murdered who I would deem to be hero's.

[Pixxie7]

That’s absolutely appalling surely the BLM is about equality for all.

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Pixie , what the hell are you talking about ,?

[EmperorCovidula]

I say this as a member of a more or less white ethnic minority that has suffered genocide and ethnic cleansing (none of these perpetrated by Western European’s). There is a hierarchy of racial victimhood that correlates directly to skin shade. Black rights activists are not going to care about the oppression of Indians (even in the instances where blacks people were the perpetrators). I agree with you of course but I really don’t think you’ll get anywhere.

[Giraffesnmeerkats]

Emperor , that's an interesting point
Also while I've been trying to get to sleep and can't . Talking of racism and prejudice .
I'm really not meaning to be obtuse , but what about the Caste system of Indian culture ?
I'd like to hear the Ops thoughts on that .
Unfortunately you will always have one group of people who think they are superior to another , humans are humans . As I said before it would be wonderful if we could all treat one another with respect and decency, bit sadly it ain't going to happen.

[FithColumnist]

I hear you OP and I honestly empathise.

In my experience, however, those who are shouting the loudest at the moment about how “this is about black people right now” and attempting to silence other voices are in fact white people attempting to earn “woke points”. Which to me seems like yet another attempt (however well-meaning) by white people to police the narrative at the expense of disadvantaged voices.