To expect people not to use the word hung when they mean hanged.

[cushioncover]

Ok, I know IABU, and I'm no grammar queen myself but I've read this 4 times today and I just had to rant about it! There!

[Threadworm]

Oxford comma is also called the serial comma. If you have a list within a sentence, e.g.

'For dinner I am going to have potatoes, sausages, and beer'

the usual UK convention is to omit the comma before 'and'. But the American style (and the Oxford University Press style) is to include this ('serial') comma.

I think it's one of those cases where each of two styles is equally good and publishers just strive to be consistent.

[Dinosaur]

LOL at SPB!

[TinyGang]

Oh, I love this thread.

I can't understand some of it but I admit I have learned (or is that learnt? God, that'll get you all going) a bit on here actually which is good.

Getting back to hung and hanged - why is the term 'hung, drawn and quartered' spelt (spelled? Now I'm paranoid! Help!) like that please?

[MrsBumblebee]

I was actually originally thinking of commas that are necessary to preserve the sense, e.g.:

'Today I purchased a loaf of bread and some milk and a dog ate my sandwich.'

instead of

'Today I purchased a loaf of bread and some milk, and a dog ate my sandwich.'

Without a comma, it initially sounds like you purchased the dog.

Now, I know you wouldn't necessarily choose either version as a matter of preference (you'd probably rewrite the sentence altogether), but I still think the second version is 'correct'. But I've got no idea whether this still counts as an Oxford comma. Anyone?

[VagusPabo]

Hmm.. I thought an Oxford comma occurred after 'and.'

TinyGang it is hanged, drawn and quartered. Google it if you have a strong stomach. Not one for the squeamish.

[Threadworm]

Agree Badger that your comma is necessary to the sense. It's not an Oxford comma. Oxford comma relates specifically to cases where the last item in a list is preceded by a comma followed by the word 'and'.

Though very much like the idea of it as a donnish comma, cycling along Oxford High Street, considering the sonnets of Keats.

[StealthPolarBear]

Popping in to watch Morse being filmed...

[MrsBumblebee]

Thanks for clearing that up, Threadworm.

Incidentally, as a newcomer to a pedantry thread, I'm interested in how much embarrassment you're all willing to endure for your beliefs. For example, would you go into a cafe and ask for a cheese and ham panino, or two cheese and tomato pizze? I can only think of foreign word examples at the moment. Though I do remember my English teacher at school once saying, 'I'm just going to have a look whether any of the rooms upstairs is free', and everyone took the piss out of her (most of them thought it was a mistake ).

[Threadworm]

Tee Hee. I'm only a pedant when I'm being paid for it (or when I want to waste time on Mumsnet).
And actually I agree with what you or perhaps someone else said below to the effect that we shouldn't get too hung (hanged) up on rules, since they are a means not an end.
Showing my pedantry in public on this thread means that I'll now have to be careful: any stray comma in a post will be the equivilant of coming out of the loo with my skirt tucked into my pants .

Oh, and does the punctuation come before or after the emoticon?

[TinyGang]

Ah, I stand corrected. Don't think I'll google it though...could be gory.

[MrsBumblebee]

OMG, it's nice to know you're not the only one!!!! I've actually experienced a moment of genuine angst about whether to punctuate pre or post emoticon. I need help!

(FWIW, I generally punctuate after, like this .)

And I think you mean 'equivalent' .

[Ellbell]

I always ask for 'a panino', mostly because that doesn't really feel like an English word to me (yet... it'll come, no doubt), but I can bring myself to say 'pizzas'. I think, though, that in my case (I teach Italian, so these are good examples for me) that it depends whether I learnt the word first in English (I had eaten a pizza before I started learning Italian) or in Italian (I ate panini in Italy before they had become a 'thing' in the UK). I also try to maintain agreement between subject and verb in sentences like 'The majority of people thinks that this sentence is ungrammatical', but again this may be because I've spent so long telling people to use a singular verb in Italian in sentences like this. In English I think that 'The majority of people think...' would be OK, whereas in Italian a plural verb would be downright wrong. I also do use the subjunctive in English (in sentences like 'It is important that you be prepared for all eventualities'), which is a bit 'up-my-own-arse', I know . I am a hopeless case, basically!

[Ellbell]

OMG! I think I love you Threadworm and MrsBumblebee... I thought I was unique in worrying about the punctuation/emoticon relationship.

[MrsBumblebee]

Very interesting to hear from an Italian speaker on that point, Ellbell!

On the singular verb thing, I'm generally flexible depending on what sounds 'right'. So I'd probably say 'The majority thinks that this sentence is ungrammatical', but 'The majority of people think that this sentence is ungrammatical', simply because the singular verb sounds odd after a plural noun.

[Threadworm]

Equivalent!!!! My favourite word to spell wrong. See, skirt tucked in knickers , , .

(Note the use of the serial comma before the final emoticon.)

[Ellbell]

NB that my last two posts are inconsistent in their emoticon/punctuation usage.

I can't spell 'repentance'. Total mental block about it!

[Threadworm]

I mean ', , and ' of course.

On the singular verb thing, the data are inconclusive.

[MrsBumblebee]

PMSL

[cushioncover]

Sorry, Dino. Just seen your question. It is actually, 'hanged by the neck until dead'. Just as it is actually, 'hanged, drawn and quartered'. Years of general conversation have changed them.

Although I have to say, I'm not so much of a stickler that I don't think that language much adapt and change.

Can I just hold my hand up and admit to sometimes getting confused (or forgeting) the rule for the plural possessor. I always have to think about whether it's a regular plural with an 's' or whether the plural requires no 's' therefore the apostrophe should go before the 's'! I think I just keep on top of that one because I have to teach it to Y6s. It's the only use of apostrophe that sometimes confuses me.

[Dinosaur]

You mean, like the people's princess?

[Dinosaur]

And I am still not sure I agree with you!

Find me an authoritative source which demonstrates that judges used to say "I sentence you to be hanged by the neck until you are dead" rather than "hung by the neck"?

[cushioncover]

Lol, yes Dino!
People is its own plural word rather than the singular with an 's' added. Therefore, the possessive of people is people's.

If it was, 'The girls' princess', then the apostrophe comes after the 's' to donate plural. This avoids confusion with the princess that belongs to the girl.

Hope that makes sense.

[Dinosaur]

Thanks, but my grammar is rather good, actually .

[cushioncover]

Oh no I wasn't trying to give you (or anyone else) a grammar lesson there. I was trying to clarify my own rambling (in the previous post) on a point I often have to think about.

Please don't be offended.

[cushioncover]

Oh and I found the reference on a site about capital punishment in the UK.
www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/hanging1
I'll try and find something more credible.