Why are NR Parents allowed to refuse contact?

[AmICrazyorWhat2]

Bear with me as I have no personal experience of this, but I heard something this week that's been niggling at me and I want to understand the reasoning behind it (if there is any).

A friend told me this week that her ex husband has informed her that he's going abroad for a month (holiday) and obviously won't be able to have his children during this period. Their agreement gives him access EOW. She's annoyed because she'd made plans for those two weekends and will now have to cancel them. She suggested that he arrange a babysitter for at least a few hours, but he's refused.
He also pays no maintenance (no idea how he wriggled out of that).

Anyway, my question is, what's the "legal logic" behind giving the NR parent regular access, but then allowing them to simply not take it and also fail to make alternative arrangements for their children?

I can't understand why one parent is expected to do perhaps 95% of the actual parenting while the other does just a few days every year. How does this make sense? Add in the financial component and it makes even less sense to me!

[Potkettlexx]

Whilst I agree with many of the pp I would also say that no one fully knows what goes on behind closed doors.

For everyman like this (drops the kids like a hot stone) there are those fighting tooth and nail for more access but NR parent refuses.

I find this worse as they want to see their children as much as possible where’s the guy in the OP clearly doesn’t....

[Sotiredofthislife]

Financially your friend needs to apply to the CMS and open a claim for child support

Seriously? You think she won't have thought of this? Or indeed actually have a case open with the CMS?

Please understand that there are loopholes - legal and not so legal - that allow many, many NRPs to get out of paying maintenance. Having a case with the CMS means nothing at all. I haven't received anything in 10 years (although to be fair, I closed the case a couple of years ago because I couldn't stand the stress it caused me).

And there are people that for good reason decide not to 'rock the boat' by claiming maintenance through legal means.

[ItsAllTheDramaMickIJustLoveIt]

This is something that truly pisses me off. According to the judge who dealt with our situation children have a right to a relationship with both parents. I totally agree, within reason. However, it clearly isn’t an automatic right or NRPs wouldn’t be allowed to fuck off and wash their hands of their child and the responsibilities that go with them.

By the way, I don’t think anyone should be forced to be an active part of their child’s life against their will- it would be too damaging for the child.

[Clymene]

Misandrist rubbish eh? Perhaps you should take that up with the DWP which reports that about 1/3 of NR fathers don't pay maintenance unless it's enforced.

[Coolcucumber2020]

There are many forums and Facebook groups with tens of thousands of members where dads would desperately love to be involved in their kids lives more and simply aren’t allowed by bitter, twisted and controlling women.

Yes I am pretty sure my Ex is on some of these. I am awful apparently. He’s abusive to me. How often does he actually bother to see his son? Once every two months. How often does he cancel? About a third of the time.

Really not sure about the tens of thousands! I think the idea that there are tens of thousands of desperate good fathers out there with bitter horrible ex wives barring them from seeing the children is largely a myth. I’m not saying that it never happens, however there are pretty good systems in place and most mothers would welcome support from the father.

I personally know no fathers who are in this position. My friends and family also do not know any fathers in this position. I do know many, many women who are in very difficult positions with their exes and children, either abusive or feckless. Every single one of those Dads thinks they are in the right and accuses the mother.

Unfortunately it is a gendered debate. I wish it wasn’t I have had my hopes of equality and sharing parenthood absolutely crushed over the years.

[Sotiredofthislife]

OP - the reason that this happens is because from a legal perspective, contact with children and the financial side of supporting a child are considered to be completely separate. A judge is unable to make an Order, for example, that says 'every other weekend but you pay for a babysitter if you can't do that'. It is worth remembering that some people are unable to support their children for legitimate reasons - redundancy or job loss, illness and disability. It shouldn't be the case that the PWC is able to stop a child having an otherwise close relationship with their children because they were run over and are taking a long time to recover, for example.

The only way I have managed an ex who sometimes decides his social life is more important than seeing his children is by having (and sadly, having to pay for) watertight childcare arrangements that extend his time with the children in case of problems. I also had to accept that sometimes, he would let me down when I had something planned. I therefore never make arrangements where I can't afford to lose the money if necessary. I also find that making sure that the children are not aware of my plans (and indeed, my relationships) helped enormously because in the early days, he was always busy if I happened to say something like 'ooh, mummy is going out with her friend to a concert at the weekend'. It takes some practise, but playing the ex as an enemy who must be kept away from everything that is yours helps enormously. I know in the early days, I assumed he had my best interests at heart and would let some of the good things that might be happening for me slip in handover conversations. Ultimately, he was able to use that information against me, usually in a very covert, quiet way. Lock down is the only way - social media in particular. Be aware of controlling exs who do stuff like empty their car of rubbish into your bin to have a look at what's in your rubbish - I couldn't understand why there were coffee cups in mine until one day he commented that I didn't need maintenance because I could afford take away pizza. They also can be found to drive past your house on a regular basis - ask neighbours to keep an eye out and make a point of drinking coffee staring out your front room window every now and again. It was illuminating for me!

[Brown76]

There should be a sanction like paying for childcare on the days their children are supposed to have contact and/OR providing other days at the RPs choice that the children can come to them so children don't miss out on contact.

[FuckityFuckit]

It's appalling that some parents walk away and refuse contact but really, how good a parent is someone going to be if you have to force it or sanction them in order to have contact.

I think in that situation I'd see it as evidence that my children are better off without that person if they are not willing, of their own accord, to see their kids.

But paying for, definitely, that should be more heavily enforced.

[Heymacarana]

Ok , so reply to some of the posts bashing me.

I desperately want to see more of my kids and they desperately want to see more of me and my extended family.

I have never been “allowed” an extra contact when my ex has taken them away or cancelled for no reason. There has never been a single extra contact over Christmas, school holidays, or even time allowed on my birthday, their birthdays, Father’s Day etc.

The £500 a month she refused hasn’t gone into fund for the children instead. Every Penney of it (plus about £30k more that I have had to borrow) has gone on legal fees over more than two years trying to get to a situation that the CHILDREN both say they want. A large chunk (well over £1000 a month) has also gone on renting a house that would meet their needs for getting to and from school and for individual bedrooms) as I was led to believe that would help me maintain reasonable contact. she has never allowed them to stay there

Yes I took one weeks holiday. It meant me missing one daytime contact on a weekend and one brief evening contact. I begged for these to be accommodated as extra time before and after I went but was refused. I also offered for the children to spend time with my extended family (who they love dearly ) instead while I was away but was refused.

I tried to WhatsApp call the children on my “contact” times while I was away but they weren’t allowed to answer the calls.

I have missed two contacts in 28 months due to a holiday and asked for alternative time. She has cancelled well over 60 and offered no replacement time.

My kids are devastated.

[Redtrunks]

My ex has cancelled 11 out of the 15 times he had arranged to see our dc in the last year and a half (he only wants to see them once a month and this is obviously too much for him) do you think I should stop contact completely due to the emotional damage to the dc? I very much doubt he would go to court, but if he did, would they take this number of cancellations into account?

[AngelsSins]

4 BILLION is owed in unpaid child support. You can try and say women are just as bad but I think the above gives a clear indication of how many men are happy to neglect their children.

[Clymene]

@Heymacarana - oh do bore off. This thread isn't about you. Go and start a different thread

This is a thread about the overwhelming number of men who piss off when their relationships break down and don't bother to contribute anything to their children's lives.

[AngelsSins]

My ex has cancelled 11 out of the 15 times he had arranged to see our dc in the last year and a half (he only wants to see them once a month and this is obviously too much for him) do you think I should stop contact completely due to the emotional damage to the dc? I very much doubt he would go to court, but if he did, would they take this number of cancellations into account?

My dad was exactly like this, my mum didn’t stop contact. It was painful for us, he’d often cancel last minute and would never tell us himself, always called my mum and had her tell us. But I would say that as I grew up I saw through him and made up my own mind. The blame is 100% on him, but if my mum had stopped contact, maybe that could have clouded my view and I might have blamed her a bit, because it’s easier to do that than accept your dad doesn’t give a shit about you.

[Heymacarana]

@Heymacarana - oh do bore off. This thread isn't about you. Go and start a different thread

Was trying to offer an alternative viewpoint, and show that unless you actually live in the relationship and are privy to both sides of every conversation you really can’t pass comment.

The OP is entirely based on her having heard her friends version of events only and is probably very skewed, yet all the man haters are jumping to conclusions immediately.

Will leave you to your man hating and man blaming.

At no point have I ever said that all men are perfect, simply that there is often a lot more to it than an involved party would disclose to the outside world

[AngelsSins]

Heymacarana

Yeah and I’m sure when your friends listen to you, and side with you, you tell them not to be woman haters and that there are two sides to the story and they should go talk to your ex before offering you support, right?

[Langbannedforsafeguardingkids]

I find it very tiresome how some men feel the need to go onto a thread about poor fathers NAMALTing all over it.

I wish such men would stop me-railing the thread, and make their own thread if they wish about good fathers.

And you know what - telling women to 'be nice' and 'consider the other point of view'. It pisses me off and the answer is NO. In fact some bloke rolling up and NAMALTing makes me less likely to consider the other point of view, quite frankly, as it's a timely reminder of just how shitty some men can be.

[Clymene]

No you weren't. You were NAMALTing. It's tiresome.

[bibliomania]

if my mum had stopped contact, maybe that could have clouded my view and I might have blamed her a bit, because it’s easier to do that than accept your dad doesn’t give a shit about you.

AngelsSins, this is good for me to hear. I don't like how dd is treated by her father during contact, and I wrestle over whether to stop it or whether to let her experience it and make the decision herself. She's 12 and wavering on the edge of not wanting to go but not there yet. It's not that I'm afraid of court - we went quite a few times and his original contact was reduced due to his behaviour. I just didn't want her imagining that contact would have been wonderful if only I didn't stop it.

Sorry for derail. To answer the OP, the court can't force someone to be a decent parent - I'm sure everybody in the court system wishes they could. If there is one parent who prioritises themselves and one who prioritises the children, the former will always "win" in the short-term because the latter will pick up the slack, for the dc's sake.

[Sugarplumfairy65]

@32Heymacarana my son in law has just come through a year and a half of court proceedings in an attempt to have regular contact with his daughter. A daughter who he was allowed to see regularly until he started a relationship with my daughter.
He didn't have any money for solicitors, he represented himself. This is a guy who has as adhd and works as a carpenter, not much formal education.
His ex and her mother told so many lies about him in court to a female judge. However, the judge was able to see through this and his ex's mother actually admitted that she'd lied and was told to leave the courtroom. He now has his daughter eow and half of all holidays and alternate Christmas/birthdays.
So stop bleating and get yourself to court. What you paid for that holiday would have paid the court fees.
His ex accused him of some awful things, but he knew he hadn't done them and was determined to have regular contact. The courts were not biased at all.

[Langbannedforsafeguardingkids]

Was trying to offer an alternative viewpoint, and show that unless you actually live in the relationship and are privy to both sides of every conversation you really can’t pass comment

Ah behold the egocentric male. I'm going to tell you what I think but unless you live in the relationship...you can't pass comment - i.e. women shut up.

Only men are allowed to speak, and it's ok for men to blame everything on women (who they claim behave badly) but it's not ok for women (supported by a lot of statistics) to call out the overwhelmingly larger number of badly behaved non-paying dads out there.

If a person's first response to someone complaining about bad behaviour in an adult male is NAMALT then frankly I'm very dubious about their veracity and unlikely to give much weight to their opinion.

Also, if no-one passed comment without knowing every detail of a relationship there would be no Mumsnet.

[changedtempforprivacy]

@heymacarena - The £1,000 a month you pay to rent a house close to their school? You would have housing costs for yourself anyway, so can hardly argue this is an expense incurred on your children.

As for your ex refusing the £500 a month maintenance, I’m guessing there is a back story and she thinks you should b paying more. I don’t see any reason why this is not being put it in savings for your children. That you have chosen to incur in excess of £30,000 I legal fees and have not achieved the contact you seek indicates to me that yes, we don’t know all the facts.

If a resident parent did not make proper arrangements for their child, the child would be removed by social services, women ( and it is generally the women) are supposed to be grateful for the crumbs off the table.

Good maintaince is half of all child related expenses including half of childcare, anything less is not fair, as otherwise it is the resident parent picking up those expenses.

My ex husband didn't contact our daughter for 2 years, and then waltzed back as though nothing had happened/ If I abandoned my child for 1 day I would have social services involved, but no sanctions for a non resident parent. I have never received a penny and my child is 4 - I choose to work and provide, my ex husband has chosen benefits as a lifestyle. he moved back to his home country and CMS have no jurisdiction so I cannot do anything.

I facilitate contact because it is in her interests to know her other parent,

[MrsHusky]

my ex doesn't pay a penny.. he does have the kids EOW but has no qualms in just casually informing me that he can't have them if he's doing something.

I just take the view that if he wants to ruin his relationship with his kids, then its his fault if they want nothing to do with him further down the line.

[namechanger0989]

My sister deals with this all the time. She will just get a text saying sorry can't have kids this weekend as I'm xyz.
I have suggested to her that she play him at his own game and just text him one week saying 'sorry I'm busy this week so I can't have kids back, see you next week'

[AmICrazyorWhat2]

I just take the view that if he wants to ruin his relationship with his kids, then its his fault if they want nothing to do with him further down the line.

I think that's where my friend is now several years down the line. She doesn't want to waste money on legal fees and she doesn't want to have more arguments with her ex. She had a quiet grumble to me about the holiday as I'm a close friend.

Having not gone through this myself and knowing a couple of families where the divorced parents are both v. involved with their DC, I just didn't realise how easy it is for a NRP to refuse contact - with no legal consequences. It seems so unfair to the DC and the RPs who have to pick up the pieces.
to everyone who's dealing with a similar situation.

[PyongyangKipperbang]

The reason that there isnt a "three strikes and you're out" rule with contact is because it has been proven through countless research that children who have even only very sporadic contact with a NRP have better outcomes overall than those who have none.

My only concern is the assumption through these studies that this is causal, ie that NRP contact say twice a year directly contributes to the over all long term well being of the child. I would argue that an RP who makes their child available for contact regardless of the fecklessness of the NRP is more capable of putting their childs needs first regardless of their own feelings. That they will consider that their own bitterness at the way they and their child are being treated (probably not getting CM either) should be put to one side, especially when the child actively wants to see the NRP, as many do at least when they are young. So that parent is more likely to be involved in their childs education, more aware of mental health wobbles, more concerned about keeping them safe and emotionally secure in order to make up for the failings in the other parent. I would suggest that that is why these children have a better outcome, and the NRP contact is mere coincidental. But until THAT theory is proven, probably never, there will always be an open door policy on contact for the NRP.