Why are NR Parents allowed to refuse contact?

[AmICrazyorWhat2]

Bear with me as I have no personal experience of this, but I heard something this week that's been niggling at me and I want to understand the reasoning behind it (if there is any).

A friend told me this week that her ex husband has informed her that he's going abroad for a month (holiday) and obviously won't be able to have his children during this period. Their agreement gives him access EOW. She's annoyed because she'd made plans for those two weekends and will now have to cancel them. She suggested that he arrange a babysitter for at least a few hours, but he's refused.
He also pays no maintenance (no idea how he wriggled out of that).

Anyway, my question is, what's the "legal logic" behind giving the NR parent regular access, but then allowing them to simply not take it and also fail to make alternative arrangements for their children?

I can't understand why one parent is expected to do perhaps 95% of the actual parenting while the other does just a few days every year. How does this make sense? Add in the financial component and it makes even less sense to me!

[Heymacarana]

@Blackandgreenteas absolutely you can't to people but maybe we could work on raising the societal contribution expectation bar for fathers a little higher than "ejaculation".

Bit of a blanket statement isn’t it?

There are literally thousands and thousands of fathers fighting everyday for years to be more involved in their children’s lives who are refused that right by the mothers.

There are many forums and Facebook groups with tens of thousands of members where dads would desperately love to be involved in their kids lives more and simply aren’t allowed by bitter, twisted and controlling women.

There are of course many thousands who would happily dodge all parental responsibility.

No one has enough information from the OP to conclude which is the case here

[PleaseGiveMeAShake]

My abusive ex took me to court for contact with our dd.
After his anger management, the court and i wanted to build up contact slowly. So we were back and forward to court constantly
Final orders were granted on a few hours contact on a weekly basis.
As soon as the final order was granted visits dropped off to once a month. Him cancelling or just awol.
For him he was and still is more interested in fighting/punishing/getting even with me rather than the actual contact.
It's really sad for our dd but he cannot be forced to grow up and make these precious years with our dd count

[fascinated]

It’s outrageous that the penalty for not paying your TV licence is harsher than for not paying for your kids. Just shows you our attitudes.

[PyongyangKipperbang]

Poor kids, it must be awful to have your parents fight about not wanting you. They must feel so unwanted

WTF?!

A mother who expects her childs father to take on his responsibility suddently doesnt want her kids?!

I am happy to admit that I look forward to EOW because its the only 4 days a month I get "off". OK so I am still working and doing what I always do, but I get to just come home and eat crap and sleep instead of running around like a loon.

To be told that he has decided he cant do it this weekend, because something else is happening, instead of saying "Sorry I cant do [something else'] because I had DD is fucking outrageous!

4 DAYS A MONTH. Thats all I get. 4 fucking days. But somehow he cant fit his fucking child free time in to the other 26 days?! And me being pissed about that means my children are unwanted?

Right.

[OldHarrysGameboy]

Fathers4JustUs is over there->>>

[Bagofworries]

All I know is that if I decided not to be there for my child, if I decided not to contribute a penny towards my childs upbringing, if I decided to live as though my child didnt exist for as long as I felt like it, my child would be removed from my care PERMANENTLY!!
If a NRP chooses not to be there for their child, chooses not to contribute a penny towards their child or decides to live as though their child doesnt exist for as long as suits them, THEY'RE STILL ENTITLED TO A RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM AND THEYRE STILL ENTITLED TO WALTZE BACK INTO THEIR LIVES WHENEVER IT SUITS THEM!!
Court ordered contact doesnt have an automatic expiry date if theres been no contact!
It shouldn't be about what the parent wants or doesnt want, it should be about what the child deserves, and no child deserves to be neglected by either parent, and still be forced to be available for a parent who has blatantly neglected them!! What message is that sending to NRP's and children?

[PumpkinP]

I just wish there was more powers for non payment of cm. like I said my ex hasn’t paid for 3 years. There is no consequences! Contact I’m not fussed with as I don’t think being forced to see kids that you don’t want to is beneficial to them.

[OldHarrysGameboy]

@Bagofworries agree. The reason they get away with it and the state doesn't step in is because someone else is doing the work. Ie a woman.

[OldHarrysGameboy]

If the woman acted in the same way, it would be classed as neglect.

Not "oh it's not convenient", not "well, you can't force her so just leave it" but actual, legally defined neglect.

[Cluckyandconfused]

Forcing contact would be miserable for the child. What would the penalty for missing contact be? Would this discourage an ongoing relationship?
As I understand it, the law around child arrangements is based on what is in the child’s best interests and that a relationship with both parents is beneficial to the child.

@Heymacarana - Don’t spread misinformed rubbish about the court system being biased. It is alarmingly easy for even abusive men to be awarded contact time with their children. Claiming that you needed a holiday due to the ‘stress’ of not seeing your kids 50:50 and therefore consequently missing a weeks worth of contact is absolute hypocrisy.

The fact is most men do not play an equal role in raising a child prior to separation and do not bond with them in the same way that most mothers do. They don’t take time off work, go part time or sacrifice promotions and pay rises to be there for their child or run the house that the family lives in. They believe that pursuing their career, which is what they would have done regardless of the child, is enough. Some are then surprised to learn that it is not considered to be in the child’s best interests to be shuttled between two homes to stay with a dad who has never really been involved in their care or doing housework before. Other men see their occasional weekend parenting as something they can drop when a better offer like a holiday comes along.

[Langbannedforsafeguardingkids]

Claiming that you needed a holiday due to the ‘stress’ of not seeing your kids 50:50 and therefore consequently missing a weeks worth of contact is absolute hypocrisy.

Yep, why not go on holiday just on the days you don't have contact if you're putting the kids first? A few mini breaks in the UK. Otherwise the message they get is your holiday is more important than them.

A lot of parents who complain that they don't get enough access seem massively picky about when and how they get access i.e. it's pretty clearly not about the kids welfare, it's about control. Parents who genuinely want more contact with their kids don't skip sessions to go on holiday.

[AmICrazyorWhat2]

I obviously don't know all the details of their divorce but I've known them before they split up and he definitely insisted on a formal access agreement - the contact wasn't forced at all.

Ironically, one of the DC missed two weekends last year due to illness (they preferred to stay with their Mum when ill) and he took his ex to court! He was given two makeup weekends - but now this holiday's come up, he's happy to miss two more!

It just doesn't make sense to me one parent must stick to agreements, but the other can change the schedule when they feel like it. Obviously the children's best interests are paramount, but parenting is a shared responsibility. Or it should be .

[BluntAndToThePoint80]

Some men are crap, but so are some women.

I have a close relative who shares his children 50/50 with his EXW. She regularly chops and changes, requires him to cancel things to cover when she can’t deal with them etc... He however is allowed no flexibility if he has other engagements and needs the same considerations from her. He won’t however rock the boat in case she becomes difficult, so he’ll arrange childcare etc... if needed. The upshot is both children prefer him and regularly express a desire to just lice with him. The eldest pretty much does now is as over 16 so just comes and goes as he pleases.

Who knows the facts in this case, but not all fathers are rubbish and not all mothers are perfect. This thread appears to have turned into another man bashing thread.

To answer the question, you can’t force a father (or indeed mother) to have contact. The patent should work together to try to agree arrangements that include flexibility - its prob better to swap weekends for example than to stick rigidly to arrangements that mean one/both need to sort childcare due to work commitments for example. It’s such a shame people either chose feckless partners to breed with or one/both parent can’t be adult enough to work together in the interests of a child.

I’d say a father is allowed a holiday, but should discuss it with the ex first and she should accommodate him where possible in the interests of the kids. However, he should do likewise and they should ideally work together to ensure contact is made up.

If the ex really doesn’t care about his kids in this case, there’s not much to be five. As a mother I’d rather spend longer with my kids than ship them out to someone who didn’t want them. They’d know in a heartbeat and it’s not good for them.

[Wiaa]

In the scenario described by the OP there probably would have been no problem with the arrangement if it had just been discussed beforehand, certainly one parent shouldn't be able to just drop their dc whenever it suits but in RL stuff does come up that may mean some flexibility in the arrangements is needed - work trip, honeymoon, operation ect. Of course I mean by both parents and whilst its true the parent whose turn it is should try to arrange childcare im sure in a scenario where more than a night is involved the other parent would prefer to have the children an extra weekend rather than they stay with auntie x. good communication and a bit of respect is key i think.
Sorry nothing anyone can do about a parent who doesn't give two hoots about their dc unless it suits them.

[Coolcucumber2020]

It can sometimes feel like the mandated amount to pay becomes the maximum they’re willing to pay, like it’s a tax to their ex, rather than food and clothes for their child.

I hear you! You see this all over the MN boards with even women saying that their ex or their current DH ‘pays good maintenance’ to the Ex, as if the CMS is a fair indicator of what a child NEEDS, which is has never ever been set up to do. It’s the minimum enforceable amount. Totally burying their head about what RP actually have to fork out. I can’t believe that there isn’t a campaign from RP about this.

And yes I totally agree OP that is shocking how many NRP seem to see childcare as optional. My Ex will scream loudly about how he misses DS, how much he loves him, and he does love him. However like someone would love a mate. He’s cancelled many times. He’s gone on two month holidays with his girlfriend. He’s even dropped off DS early at my mums without me being okay with it (I was not okay with it, I was still on holiday!), because he wanted to go to a festival with GF last minute. My mum did not agree to this.

This is what SS would get involved with if it were a RP. Seems crazy.

[Coolcucumber2020]

Sorry nothing anyone can do about a parent who doesn't give two hoots about their dc unless it suits them.

I think that are things that we can do. What if a RP cancelled having the kids back and was not in the house? The NRP could refer to SS and they would take that seriously. Why not the other way around?

As a society, we could stop propping up NRP by being openly critical if they cancel.

The CSM could put a very clear note on the calculator website that the amount is not what the child needs or actually costs. That alone would help clarify low maintenance.

Courts could take it seriously if NRP kept cancelling, after all it is very detrimental to the child, and this could then be used to reduce contact overall.

SS could keep a log of NRP ongoing cancellations. This is clear child neglect and yet it seems to ‘slip through the cracks’. It could start creating a picture of that parent and just the act of being on a register could make NRP see that they are still a parent.

[Coolcucumber2020]

It’s such a shame people either chose feckless partners to breed with

It is not the woman’s fault if a man turns out to be feckless!

[Nowayorhighway]

My exH has always been this way. He once took his girlfriend and her two DC away to America for a fortnight and left our three DC behind, that’s how much of a dick he is. I obviously had to make up for it tenfold as usual. He’s dropped contact for weddings as well meaning I had to completely alter plans. No idea why he’s allowed to do this, can you imagine if I swanned off to the US with someone else’s children for a fortnight and left them behind? I don’t know how he sleeps at night sometimes tbh.

I suggest she contacts CMS. You can’t force contact but can force CM unless he doesn’t work.

[Nowayorhighway]

4 DAYS A MONTH. Thats all I get. 4 fucking days.

This is all I get too because he lives in a small two bedroom house with his GF and her two kids so there’s no space for our DC to stay over. He’s been ‘moving house’ for the past four years so I know this won’t change. It sucks.

It’s such a shame people either chose feckless partners to breed with

My ex wasn’t feckless when I ‘bred’ with him but he certainly is now. Also, it’s always the woman’s fault isn’t it?

[Deathgrip]

There are many forums and Facebook groups with tens of thousands of members where dads would desperately love to be involved in their kids lives more and simply aren’t allowed by bitter, twisted and controlling women.

It’s ironic that you would lecture others on not having all the information and how things aren’t always as they seem, and then go on to say this.

This is exactly how my sexually abusive alcoholic father, and physically abusive alcoholic step father, described my mother after divorce. The evil bitter women keeping children from their doting fathers. You talk about a biased system, but it’s that system which insisted on continued access while I was being abused. The only person who put a stop to it was my “bitter, twisted controlling mother”.

So maybe you should take your own advice.

[Hooferdoofer37]

This isn't a "man-hating" thread.

This is a "NRP avoiding all responsibility for their DC" hating thread.

@Heymacarana you say you want to pay £500 a month in maintenance, but the ex is refusing to accept it 🤔

Surely you are putting that money into a pension or savings account for your DC.

Then when the DC is 18 they can get a lump sum of £108,000 + interest (18 yrs of £500 a month payments) which I'm sure they'll be very grateful for.

It's not money for your ex, but for your DC, and if the ex doesn't want to take it on their behalf, that doesn't stop you from giving it to them (or force you to go on a holiday during contact time).

[SmallChickBilly]

It suits her agenda to only allow me to see them twice a week, and she regularly cancels that if she feels like it.

I went on holiday recently for a week and for my own sanity due to the stress of it. I would have loved to have taken them but wasn’t allowed.

I missed two contact times. I begged for that time to be made up on different days and she refused.

You complain when you ex changes contact, but want her to adapt her schedule to accommodate your holiday? And you won't go to court? I don't understand how not seeing your kids can be less stressful than fighting for them? Especially if your ex is the nightmare you day she is? Don't you worry about them living with her?

[justmyview]

I wonder whether there's at least some sort of sanction available for the NRPs who are totally unreliable or constantly chop and change, in the shape of a realistic threat that they could have access reduced to the bare minimum?

@JudyCoolibar if contact is regulated by a court order, then the sanction would be for the RP to return to court to seek to vary the court order, on the basis that the NRP wasn't having contact as per the existing order. And if contact reduced, then that could have knock on implications for child support eg if NRP now entitled to contact 2 days per month instead of 4

[youknowitmakessensedunnit]

Sorry to disturb some of the misandrist rubbish spouted here, but there are shit mothers and shit fathers out there. The OP has coted a shit father, another poster has cited a shit mother.

For balance (as most posts seem to portray average divorced dad as deadbeat non-payment who cant wait to body swerve his kids) there are plenty of mothers out there who deny their children the opportunity to see their fathers as often as they would like to. The father then has no choice but to go through a family court system spending thousands upon thousands of pounds fighting people like CAFCASS(86% female) and societal attitudes to caregiving, most of which assume women are only fit to care for children (rather than succeed in the workplace).

[FuckityFuckit]

I guess it comes down to the fact that you can't hold a gun to someone's head and make them be a parent. It's much easier for the NRP to walk away as they aren't there day in day out (not in OPs scenario anyway).

It's fucking shit, and it's wrong, and it's not fair on the children or your friend. And yes it doesn't work both ways as a RP couldn't just simply leave the house and abandon their kids (well they could but they would be in trouble and let's hope the majority wouldn't want to anyway!).

But yeah, you can't really force someone to be a decent person I guess.

Legally speaking, I think the only thing a non resident parent can be forced to do by a court is pay maintenance. I don't think they have to see their kids at all if they don't want which is wrong obviously. She should definitely go to CMS though. If she can at least get him to pay that's something.