Is SIL so desperate to upsize she's unintentionally conning MIL out of money - venting but very worried too

[being40]

My MIL has just come back from a holiday with her daughter (SIL).
My FIL passed away in December 2018.
MIL is still very much grieving. She has been with FIL 54 years. He was ill and she nursed him at home.
MIL lives 3 hours drive from us and 1.5 hours from SIL how we until FIL got sick it was DH and myself and our DC who spent every holiday with them. SIL not estranged from MIl just didn't see her as much.
That's the background.
MIL is staying at ours and told us that she was thinking of selling up her flat and helping SIL buy a 'much bigger house' and moving in with them.
It turns out plan was mentioned by SIL on holiday as MIL is feeling really bored and very lonely and unhappy (understandable).
But the plan is way more advanced and SIL put her house up for sale as soon as they got back and has just had an offer. MIL says sale could take months (when DH and I said she might need to think about it).
We are very concerned that SIL didn't even call DH to mention plans. They used to be close but since SIL married her DH she 'ghosted' both DH and I.
Oh and MIL has told us she wants to pay for us to have an extension so she can move in with us the rest of the time she is not at SIL.
Other warning signs to me: SIL selling propert for £650k and buying a £1.7m one. They are in late 40s so her DH is taking in a huge mortgage and they want to turn garden of property they have found and put a offer on (already) into glamping site.
Not much I can do but same thing happened in my family and didn't end well.
Just venting really and wanting to be supporting of grieving MIL.

[being40]

Unfortunately MIL didn't want to chat about this at all. So thank you for all your advice. She actually started a tantrum when we talked to her claimed we were harassing her. I ended up having relationship with DH compared to SIL with her DH - they are much calmer and speak to each other really quietly.
We will have our extension done I think as DH and MIL want that.

[BackforGood]

I agree with @ajandjjmum.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude's post is good advice though.

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

You may need to reframe it. Tell MIL she is a wonderful and generous person. Say it would be a dreadful shame if her kindness was undone by technical tax and social care concerns. Point out that it would be very stressful if this was challenged later so she should get some independent legal advice so make sure that her intentions don’t get messed up by the complex rules in this area.

[ajandjjmum]

I wouldn't be committing to 40% residency to someone who wasn't prepared to sit down and have an adult conversation about the situation.

[being40]

Oh and MIL got really angry when we tried to sit down and ask her if she had taken legal advice

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

Given MIL’s age she also needs inheritance tax advice depending on the size of the estate.

[doginthemanger]

Those of us who have seen these things go wrong aren't concerned about inheritance.

MIL will have sunk her money into a large property for her and SIL.
SIL can make all the promises in the world but if she fails to care for MIL in the future or makes her feel very unwelcome, 40/60 could easily become 100/0 with OP and her family. It very much affects OP's family, or could do.

And there might not be the funds for a nursing home if MIL ever needs that kind of care.

[bombomboobah]

I think the daughter is taking advantage while her mother is vulnerable

[being40]

Thank you - a lot of useful advice.
I'm not worried about inheritance- MIL helped us buy our house and we had planned an extension as we have an outbuilding which we were going to renovate. MIL's money welcome but was not expected.
I'm worried at the speed of all this and the fact they are upsizing so much.
Said to DH 'why don't they find a place that's got some extra room for your mum' without her having to put in any extra cash. Or somewhere like ours that they can extend.
MIL plans to split her time 40/60.
Thing is SIL - is not a natural carer and although she has 2 DC - they spend most of their weekends with her MIL/FIL she joked she 'wants them out the way as much as possible'. Admitted she found looking after children hard. But she will need to help MIL because although she is able bodied she is in her 80s...

[Mousetolioness]

Did your MIL come up with idea of giving you money to extend your home or was that a suggestion planted in her mind by SIL?

You haven't been given the courtesy of consideration for how you and your DH envisage your future. No opportunity to have a say on what the future looks like in terms of how often you'd be expected to have MIL staying with you.

SIL sounds 'grabby' - and I say that based on the speed with which she has progressed things at her end. It sounds extremely rushed and as many posters have said it needs careful and considered thought, plus good legal and financial advice.

I don't get the impression from your post that your initial concern is about any potential inheritance but rather about the soundness of this proposition in respect of your MIL's financial independence.

Things could very well go tits up and MIL left with little say or choice over her future.

[BackforGood]

For those saying 'people on MN are only worried about the inheritance', I, for one have already said totally up to the house owner what they state in their will, but they need some advice to make sure they are going in to it with both eyes open., which is what I'm reading in most posts.

Yes, only a few months after losing your life partner isn't the best time to be making life changing decisions. Any of us, as any time in our lives ought to take time and do some research before entering into any massive financial commitment. ALWAYS a good idea to take impartial advice from people who know what they are talking about and not only listen to the advice of the person who is going to benefit MASSIVELY from this plan. TO me, that seems to be what most posters are advising.

[SunniDay]

JaceLancs

"Hope she doesn’t need any kind of home care or to move into residential or nursing home within 7 years
SIL would have to downsize or pay her nursing home fees
You would have to refund the cost of the extension or downsize or pay nursing home fees
It is definitely deprivation of assets and they will check
You are allowed to give away £3000 per year and that’s it
That’s £3000 in total not £3000 each to a few people btw"

I think this post is a bit muddled. The seven year rule is to do with inheritance tax and how long before a gift falls outside of inheritance tax.

The £3000 is how much you can give away without it being a consideration for inheritance tax

You can give away as much money as you like. If you die within seven years of the gifting it has to be considered when calculating inheritance tax.

Deprivation of assets involves giving away money to avoid care home costs. If a healthy person (with no suggestion of needing care) gives away money it is unlikely to be considered deprivation of assets. The purpose is to help daughter buy a house not to avoid care costs (as no care is required). However MIL would be far better off to retain assets so she has choice in the provision of her care if needed in the future e.g. paying for help at home or a better care home, rather than no choice.

[JaceLancs]

Hope she doesn’t need any kind of home care or to move into residential or nursing home within 7 years
SIL would have to downsize or pay her nursing home fees
You would have to refund the cost of the extension or downsize or pay nursing home fees
It is definitely deprivation of assets and they will check
You are allowed to give away £3000 per year and that’s it
That’s £3000 in total not £3000 each to a few people btw

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

MIL could end up with some intrusive investigations if she needs care later as it could look like deprivation of assets.
www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs40_deprivation_of_assets_in_social_care_fcs.pdf

She needs independent advice

[WonderWomansSpin]

I think you may be worrying unnecessarily. I doubt DSIL put her house up for sale on the basis of a conversation on holiday with DMIL.
Unless your DMIL is very vulnerable. It would seem more likely that SIL mentioned they were moving to a bigger place. DMIL said she was lonely and thinking of selling up then decided she could live between DSIL and your DH, putting money into both your houses (some into SIL's purchase and some into your extension).
If SIL was already intending to sell then there's no reason for her to run it past you. I agree a family meeting with DSIL, DMIL and your DH would be best but I wouldn't automatically assume the worst of SIL.

[Fatshedra]

Far too soon to move in with relatives. She needs longer to get over her DHs death. And living next to a clamping site WTF I certainly won't be choosing that for my retirement.
Def suggest a visit to solicitor by DMIL regarding assets for care home fees . Far too rushed, fartoo big a commitment by SIL requiring DMILs money.

[CallmeAngelina]

There are some e trembly naive people on this thread.

[Cheeseandwin5]

As long as your DH and SIL get the same amount, it doesnt really matter what it is used for (new house, extension etc). It maybe wise to speak to your DH about the welfare of your MIL (just in case anything untoward is happening) but there maybe allsorts of dynamics and family issues you may be unaware of.

[Drabarni]

Nothing to do with you, if your dh isn't happy he can speak for himself.
Just sit back and be supportive when he needs this.

[snowbear66]

This happened to an older woman I know, not used to dealing with money when her husband passed away and preyed on by her ambitious child.
My friend was the ambitious child's sister who became a single mum recently, but her mother was unable to help her out financially as all the money is tied up in the new property & led to a massive falling out.

[Jaxhog]

It's such a tough one to deal with. My Aunt did this to my GM, who lost all the money from her lovely house as a result. She ended up in the small half of the basement of my Aunt's new house, owning nothing.

Unfortunately, it is your MiL's choice. All you can do is advise her of the possible consequences.

[ifIwerenotanandroid]

The people who are criticising the OP seem not to have noticed the bit about putting an extension on her house so that her MIL can stay there. That's the point at which this thing sounds like a con. Has nobody heard of bait and switch?

Yes, it may be none of her business what MIL & SIL do. But when it comes to OP's house, OP's life & OP's marriage, it's definitely her business.

[fruitbrewhaha]

Are you sure you didn't fall asleep while watching escape to the country?

Are they also planning on being self sufficient, run a business in which they have no experience, and keep some pigs, but at the same time, be semi retired and give up the rat race.

You can't unintentionally con someone. You are either misleading someone for your gain, or just someone with a bad idea. This idea is not terrible. What does your DH think? Sounds a bit like you are jealous.

[TaskMistress]

We did this with my mum.
She sold her house, we sold ours and we brought a larger place. The house is owned as tenants in common with 50% being mums and 50% my dh and I.
We talked it through with my siblings first to make sure they were happy.
Inheritance wise(if mum hasn't spent it all) they will get the shares and savings she has and the grandkids get her share of the house. They cannot sell from under us but will get the share when we do downsize.

Living with your parent isn't a walk in the park. I will be doing the care when it comes.

At the end of the day it is your mums money. She can do what she wants with it, her children are not entitled to any of it, she could give it all to charity.

[sansou]

Better to keep out of it. Let your DH deal with it. No-one can make you build an extension for them to move in even if they are willing to pay for it.