To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

[Lovemusic33]

mooncup I feel the same, I voted to remain but after all that’s happened and the fact there’s no room for negotiation for a deal to leave i would probably now vote to leave. I’m so sick of the whole Brexit thing and how long it’s taking, I just want it to be over.

[tillytrotter1]

Did you understand when you voted the procedure leaving involved? In my experience few people understood that the other members didn't need to negotiate, all they do is discuss anything that the UK proposes. I agree that the Eu is probably on its last legs but Brexit has actually strengthened their resolve, we would have been better inside pissing out not the reverse.

[MerryChristmasHarry]

I'm also interested to note that Northern Ireland doesn't appear to have figured at all in your calculations OP. That is telling.

[DarlingNikita]

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist

It wasn't 52% of the British population who voted leave (or, indeed, 48% who voted remain). As pps have noted, about a third of the voting populace didn't bother.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

There is no 'EU' separate from the member countries. This setting 'the EU' up as some autonomous entity baffles me. I CBA going through how EU membership functions, but in short those who are active and have executive power in it are voted for by member countries' electorate (e.g. MEPs) and represented by the council (the PM of the member country).

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. Perhaps you could have made efforts to find out?

If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. We can. 'unchecked immigration' is a myth that suits the politicians and the media with an anti-immigrant agenda; they tend to conveniently forget to remind people of the controls the UK has over EU immigration. Try looking it up.

If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. This argument is disingenuous. You conflate asylum and immigration. And about half of immigration to the UK is from non-EU countries, so it is also inaccurate.

I had no thoughts on the Irish backstop, it never occurred to me that it would become the issue it has It's funny, for someone so engaged over certain aspects of the EU (Maastricht), you seem to have dropped the ball a few times. I'm assuming you're not stupid, so I have to ask: why on earth did it not occur to you?

I still think, that if we had goodwill on both sides it could be sorted.
Goodwill does not override an international treaty.

Try harder, OP.

[Sorryandstressed]

Thank you op a very articulate post. I am also a leaver and detest that I am assumed to be ignorant, racist, uneducated etc as a result.

[ChangedMyNameYetAgain]

I voted Leave for similar reasons to the OP, although I don't remember life before we joined the EEC.
Before I voted, I thought long and hard about which way to vote.

[MissConductUS]

that sounds pretty much like, erm, a border???!!!

Of course it's a border. OP's comparison was This country isn't used to having a land border but others are eg EU borders with Switzerland, Canada with USA where free movement for locals is straightforward.

Locals cross the US Canadian border every day to work, shop and attend school on the other side. It's quite straightforward. It doesn't mean that there isn't a border between the two countries.

[Yabbers]

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist.

I don’t believe this either. But I do believe there was a significant enough minority of people who are either or both which tipped the balance. It didn’t need 52% of them, it needed less than 10% of them.

[helacells]

YANBU I think it's inevitable that we will leave with no deal and have to negotiate from scratch. Perhaps we will get some autonomy back and I believe other countries will follow suit. This time next year there may be no EU, imagine that!

[PinkiOcelot]

OP, I too voted leave. Your reasoning very much mirrored mine but you’ve put your thoughts into words much more eloquently than I could have.

I didn’t vote for no deal. I didn’t vote for this. I honestly thought that a deal could have been struck long before now. I didn’t think we’d be in this position 3+ years down the line. I don’t think the government have been negotiating all this time. I think they’ve left it to the 12th hour and this is the resulting shit storm, that no matter what remainers say, we did not vote for!

There’s still remainers on this thread throwing around the insults, which is ridiculously childish IMO! Remainers, how do you think you are right and we are wrong? Genuine question.

[perdigal]

@Autumnintheair

It's funny you feel like I have made you cringe. I just wanted to know more before I was expected to cast any vote. I wanted to be more Knowledgable in what leave meant logistically, timeframes, deals, borders. We were just thrown silly NHS numbers and immigrant numbers.

I'm not saying the EU is perfect but I didn't feel the country was equipped to make the decision as no one - NOT leave and NOT remain - could tell us HOW we could do it.

I'm cringing at you. Cringing that the leavers had no plan of it would be executed. We are in a total mess and crashing out is not ideal. But you are so bloody minded you are probably one of those that wants to crash out. CRINGE.

[perdigal]

@Pinki

You were wrong as you risked all of this without even questioning HOW we were going to do it. Massive risks and here we are. You voted for that.

I was right as I thought it could be a total mess and wasn't prepared
To rock the boat without more
Knowledge and more information. It all looked too risky. So I have EU concerns but wanted to remain.

You DID vote for this. I didn't . Simple. Take responsibility!

Clearly it was going to be a total nightmare!!

[Juells]

I voted to remain but after all that’s happened and the fact there’s no room for negotiation for a deal to leave i would probably now vote to leave.

Blame the DUP, not the EU. Blame David Davis for agreeing the WA, then getting off the plane in London a few hours later sniggering about how it wasn't something that could be enforced. I'm surprised the EU is even still polite to you, never mind being willing to still talk to you. Red lines everywhere in the negotiations, as if you're doing the EU a favour rather than asking for a trade deal with a huge trade bloc.

[LatteLove]

Remainers, how do you think you are right and we are wrong?

Because attempting to leave has been a monumental fuck up?

[readingreadingreading]

What would I like to see happen now? Another extension but a long one, 2 or 3 years. A deal to be agreed in that time and signed by both sides and a binding vote taking place on that agreement. If a deal to put to vote still cannot be agreed then no-deal. A legally binding agreement with the EU to this effect. I would prefer to leave but I agree that the campaign, on both sides was not conducted with full information. I would accept a remain vote.

Is this an apology. No. I am deeply disappointed with the way things have gone but the reasons I voted the way I did remain.

I am deeply sorry for the uncertainty this has led to for expats on both sides. I would never wish anyone currently in the country to be offered anything less than the rights they currently have. This is up to our government to do the right thing by those living here. I would not ask for any reciprocation, not held hostage to the EUs decision on our expats. Our governments actions on immigration are shocking but I still feel that a better policy could be devised outside Europe.

Yes I was naïve to not realise quite how incompetent our politicians would prove to be.

[frumpety]

We are stuck with a Government who decided to offer a referendum without any idea of a plan as to what to do if the public voted the way they didn't want them to and a public who thought the Government being a Government would have a plan for one of the two options stated on the ballot paper.
Other than revoke and the WA (or a WA), there is still no plan worth considering. Three long years have passed and that's the long and short of it.
No deal means WE WOULD STILL HAVE TO NEGOTIATE all the stuff that's in the current WA and trade etc , except we would be negotiating with a lot of people we have just pissed off !

[LatteLove]

“It” will all be very far from “over” when we leave the EU. It’ll only be the beginning!

[Longlongsummer]

I’m not convinced by your explanation. Just because you sent off for the Maastricht treaty, there isn’t any evidence that you’ve considered and digested the full implications. The UK has been part of the EU for many, many years, it has evolved and grown so it’s not just when the EU was created, we were part of it long before then too.

It’s a huge, complex process, and part. You provide no actual economic numbers, no actual understanding of the implications for trade agreements.

Also, there is no evidence at all that we would be financially better off. For example millions goes to fund research in this country. Millions goes to regeneration projects in poorer areas in the UK. All EU funding.

So I still think that you lack the in depth understanding to make an informed decision as to such a huge huge change leaving the EU is.

[LatteLove]

I think there should be a long extension too @readingreadingreading but not another referendum. They are too divisive.

[soulrider]

Nobody who voted Leave knew what they were voting for, they couldn't have done because there were no details or hard facts. You've got to be a little foolish to vote for something when you have no idea what it involves.

[AmIRightOrAMeringue]

Valid point above, why are you scared of mentioning in real life, when half of voters agree with you?

A close relative voted leave and he is neither racist or stupid (he is in fact v intelligent). However I know a few other leave voters and these are the reasons they gave me -

I think we should be in charge of our own future (a bit simplistic, as I'd argue most of the EU members are different enough that it still shows they can influence their economies etc. But fair enough).

I think we need a change (didn't go into what)

I think we need to put the 'great' back into 'Great Britain'. This person is, in my opinion, racist.

'We pay more than anyone else, I'm sick of subsidising them'. When I showed him that we paid (net) 4th or 5th, he changed it to 'well they hate us, and need us more than we need them'. I just dont understand this, we are 10pc of the size of the rest of the EU, how could they need us more than we need them when they are 9x the size of us.

'The hospitals near here are far too full'. I have been to our local hospitals numerous times. There are a lot of issues with translators and English not being first language etc and staff shortages. None of the other patients I have seen have been European. All immigrants from other areas. When I suggested to him that perhaps chronic underfunding and mismanagement of the NHS was the real issue, he was adamant it was just immigration due to the EU. No studies or insiders views of the NHS I have read seem to say this is the issue. This individual starts sentences with 'I'm not racist, but...'.

'All those stupid laws we've had to sign up to'. I asked 'like what' (I do know some eg men and women paying the same insurance that I think whilst trying to make things fair, actually make things unfair). He couldn't name one and said I was 'pressuring him' when I asked once, to name one law he thought was stupid.

'My MEP has a massive house, he is clearly paid too much so it must be a massive waste of money'

I've never called a leave voter thick or racist (actually I have called a couple racist but in relation to racist comments they have made, not in relation to Brexit) but, in my experience, no one has really wanted to have a rational reasoned discussion about voting leave, it's been emotional (we used to be respected!) or based on inaccuracies

[Stoic123]

OP- thank you for posting. I’m an ardent remainer but your post was well thought out and provided some reasoned explanations (whether I agree with them or not). I hope people respond in the same spirit.

An interesting point about non-EU immigration- but Brexit and (most of) its supporters aren’t taking us in the direction of ‘welcoming outsiders’. Oli Khan (Bangladesh Caterers Association), for example, now deeply regrets his support for Brexit.

We had very favourable terms agreed for our EU membership (no Euro, veto etc) in exchange for participation in a lucrative trading partnership. We would never get these back if/when we leave.

[ScrimshawTheSecond]

There were valid arguments on both sides. Lots I'm not keen on re the EU (the treatment of Greece, for example, enforced austerity, etc). However, leaving is clearly a badly organised, disingenuous shitshow orchestrated by lying bastards, and should be cancelled. If we do leave, Scotland will pretty much have to leave the UK.

[AmIRightOrAMeringue]

What would another extension achieve? We are only 10pc of the EU's market? And that's only going to reduce. Why on earth do we think they will suddenly give us any more? They have been very clear what their demands are? Why would they go back on this without us having any more to offer? What would be in it for them to drag out this mess for another 2 whole years? Weve made no progress in 2.5 years

[sunnybeachtime]

I would say 98%of the leavers I know are thick racists.

I accept that you aren't, but aren't you just so ashamed of the political company you are keeping?

I would be mortified to share an important political belief with Tommy Robinson and his supporters. Absolutely mortified.