To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

[ItsInTheSpoon]

@readingreadingreading great post

[thedancingbear]

LeaveronBalance has a real insight, I think, on the day-to-day workings and culture of the EU institutions. I've had some (limited) dealings with them and it rings entirely true.

I know a couple of people who worked close to the Blair/Brown government and both were struck with the casual ease (and sometime wastefulness) with which they'd spend taxpayer money. I find this easy to believe, and I say this as a labour voter who things Blair did more good than harm.

[readingreadingreading]

Wow, thank you everyone. Will try and answer some points and hopefully come back shortly.
Yes - I knew I needed a tin hat, though actually the response has been more positive than I expected.
I'm not brave, if I was I'd be saying this in real life. In fact I nod and smile when the subject comes up. But that is partly why I've posted. My friends no doubt assume I voted remain, or maybe we're all nodding and smiling. The assumption is so often that it's "others" who voted leave.
What did I want to happen? An agreement, along the lines of TMs, certainly allowing current EU citizens to remain in the country and to continue to come - but with the ability to block future immigration if required. For the record I can't see that it is required. There is certainly no shortage of jobs in my area.
I had no thoughts on the Irish backstop, it never occurred to me that it would become the issue it has and I'm sure I'm not alone. I still think, that if we had goodwill on both sides it couldn't be sorted. This country isn't used to having a land border but others are eg EU borders with Switzerland, Canada with USA where free movement for locals is straightforward.
More later - bedtime for DCs here

[AmIRightOrAMeringue]

I can see some of your points. But half of immigration was from non EU countries so we already surely had a lot of control over that. I think what we're short of, is low skilled workers. Most EU migrants worked in building, care, retail and hospitality, important but low skilled and low wage jobs that british people dont want.

I agree some of your other points, I think travel etc will be ok. But comparing everything to more EU days is a bit futile imo - the world is a lot different now, there is a lot more international trade and I dont see how that can be ignored and the effects of tariffs on this have been massively downplayed. Yes there are other countries we can trade with but they are much further away and transport costs are only going to increase, and they all have different laws and standards etc. There are costs to most business of joining a marketplace to trade, yes we won't be paying to the EU to trade any more but we will be paying more tariffs etc so not sure we will be better off.

It's good to have a debate without calling names or mud slinging though

[Angelil]

The notion of France and NL being among the next to leave the EU is unfounded. I lived in France until 2017 and have been in NL since then; I have not come across anyone who has not thought the whole thing is completely crazy. As others have said, Britain is not selling it well.

It is unrealistic to hark back to pre-Maastricht days. People were holidaying and living abroad back then, yes; but nowhere near as many as do now and administrative systems are simply not set up to cope with the consequences of a no-deal Brexit - especially for those already living and working in other EU countries. This could be Brits abroad or EU citizens in the UK.

What I would ask Leavers is this:

• What about the human cost? Do you even begin to understand the anxiety felt by me and others like me (Brits living in the EU or vice versa)? The feeling that we may not be allowed to stay where we are, or that we may have to go through a lot of money and paperwork in order to do so, in the same way as third-country nationals do (it's not impossible, true, but believe me when I say the authorities make it very difficult for you)? Does putting us all through this make you feel better?

• Just what concrete benefits do you expect to come your way after Britain leaves the EU (with or without a deal)? I'd be interested to know in what way(s) this complete clusterfuck is actually worth it to you.

[Fresta]

OP- just wondering how you manage to remember life before the EU but be young enough to have children which need putting to at 7.30?

[Fresta]

I suppose you might be a man?

[Dapplegrey]

Op you’re brave. A tin hat is needed though. Good luck.
And haz mat

[Butterymuffin]

So when people are talking about a time before being in the EU, they mean what - 1970? Before that? We're harking back to a world of 50 years ago. You just can't go back to that.

[Angelil]

@Juells is completely right.

[corythatwas]

While I do have sympathy, OP, there are just a couple of questions I wonder if you have considered.

If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here.

But there is nothing in EU rules that prevents us from doing this. We may not be able to deny entry to EU citizens as long as we are members, but if they want to stay more than 3 months they have to have a job and prove that they can support themselves. They are not eligible for benefits until they have lived here a considerable time. (If the UK Home Office can't be arsed to keep their paperwork in order, that is not the fault of the EU- other EU countries manage it).

We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war.

You have forgotten about the Troubles? And living and working in different countries was far from easy. As I remember it, pretty well the only thing you were allowed to do without lots of bureaucracy was to be an au-pair.

Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

Have you done the calculations so you can feel sure that we will not have to spend far more on employing our own people to do our own negotiating on every single issue rather than club together to do it together? What about things like Europol- how much do you think it would cost us to set up anything similar?

[Zxyzoey31]

OP all your reasons are quite sensible and identify some of the compromises that being in the EU involve but did you stop your thinking there or did you go on to consider if/how we could get better elsewhere. By that I mean did you think about how we would have to negotiate trade deals with all other countries and make compromises in each of thosedeals...a lot of those compromises are unpalatable. If we do leave that is the position there will be compromises to get trade deals and I think it is likely those compromises are not ones I want the country to make.

[Greeni]

Because roughly a 1/3rd of the voting population couldn't be bothered.

I have friends and family that voted leave and remain, I found good arguments for both choices and I didn’t feel able to make such an important decision without being 100% about it, I didn’t vote but it wasn’t because I couldn’t be bothered.

[GrouchoMrx]

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war.

Really?

[Brefugee]

well it was a long post OP but there wasn't any real meat to the bones. The only concrete thing I got out of that was you don't agree with the Maastricht treaty.

PP mentioned the absurdity of the EU asking for the divorce bill to be settled first. Sure they want the money they are owed before - they don't trust the British government as far as they could throw it, afterwards would they get it?

The UK has always had the ability to restrict immigration from EU countries and control aspects of how that works. They chose not to - ask yourself why.

Sure the EU has its bad points. I know some leavers. None of them, not one, before the referendum gave any indication that they wanted anything but a carefully managed exit with an agreement. Most of them are now aghast at the slomo train wreck it looks like.

[lljkk]

is that an apology, OP? Coz I'm not sure why you bothered to post, otherwise. Have you marched in the streets to demand that the charlatans who told you Brexit would be easy should be turfed out of political office? Why ever not?

You don't get to duck responsibility for your part in making this mess.

[Juells]

If people had set their mind to the Irish border from the very start the rest of it could have come later.

It's not an Irish border. It's a British border. Both Ireland and NI would have been accepting of the arrangement agreed to by May, the DUP were allowed to shaft that.

[CalmAndQuiet]

OP would you prefer to have none of the protection Europe affords us then? You do realise that many of our workers’ and human rights are in place because of Europe. Would you rather be left alone with a right wing Tory government who will do what they please to us?

[colourlessgreenidea]

We keep hearing this year after year and yet... honestly it doesn't look like the idea of Brexit is catching. The UK isn't really selling it that well...

I completely agree that the shambles of our attempts to leave is likely to give pause for thought to other EU nations considering a referendum, and our government’s inability to execute our departure is damning. No nation is going to be insane enough to hold a referendum until they’ve got the precedent of our experience learn from (as evidenced in the run-up to the 2017 French elections, and the downturns in ‘leave’ percentages in Nexit/Frexit polls following the UK referendum).

But I don’t believe that ultimately means that the EU will exist for all eternity, or that public opinion in those nations won’t swing back to their pre-2016 percentages in the future.

[jewel1968]

I understand your reasoning and I have friends with similar reasons for voting leave. I have friends who want a more socialist UK which they think could never happen in the EU. I have black friends who argue that there isn't really free movement for them on mainland Europe and feel many EU countries are racist. There is also some anger related to the impact on the commonwealth of EU membership which meant for them family members could no longer join them easily in the UK. I honestly do understand some reasons people have for voting leave.

BUT it was always going to be so so difficult (if not impossible) because of how interwoven we are and how interdependent all the member states have become on each other. And then there is the conundrum that is Northern Ireland......

[LatteLove]

Why not just vote for the status quo then, @greeni?

[Namenic]

Leave has some valid points but wasn’t the financial risk too big?

Sure we are a net contributor to EU, but with economies of scale for various food/product standards, simpler and cheaper negotiations with other countries (and with bigger clout) the balance in my mind is firmly in favour of remain.

What I do regret on my own part and on the country’s part was knowledge of the NI/Irish border which was given not much prominence. I think due to UK history of interference and causing problems in NI/ROI, there is a duty to prioritise the well-being and safety of people there.

[MissConductUS]

Canada with USA where free movement for locals is straightforward.

True enough. To cross the border you just need proof of citizenship. A passport or high security driving license will do, or a government photo ID and birth certificate. Freight is just randomly spot checked for customs compliance, most is just waved through.

[mooncuplanding]

I voted remain and if there was ever a second vote I’d vote remain

I get it OP

Didn’t before and I think the fact we actually can’t leave the EU is terrifying in itself