International students & widespread cheating

[Pewdie]

Last year I was a masters student (MSc Management). Majority of the modules involved group work. Often times I found it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to communicate with my teammates. They would often confuse very basic models/terms and their emails, WhatsApp messages were intelligible and riddled with errors. However, when it came to producing the actual assignments the standard would be incredibly high. I understand people perform differently in different contexts in how people perform varies in different contexts but I just can't believe there was nothing untoward going on. AIBU to suspect there is widespread plagiarism occurring at universities among rich, international students.

Just to note I am not bitter nor resentful. I have watched many international students agonise over assignments.

[PissedOffProf]

IrmaFayLear, exactly. I love teaching, but do sometimes fantasise about winning a massive grant that would allow me to buy all my teaching out so I don't have to deal with "customers", even though I would miss my good students very much.

[Trooperslaneagain]

I’m currently doing a masters and I am also suspicious- the uni uses a thing called “turnitin” to look at plagiarism but yesterday I got slagged off for saying “um” in a presentation

.... and the German and French and Slovenian kids (they are. I’m old) all got high praise for their faltering English.

Credit where it’s due - it’s doing my head in and I can’t imagine what it’s like with not having English as your first language but there is definitely a pecking order the international students

Like the Erasmus guys - who don’t pay and the Chinese and Indians who do.

And before everyone jumps on me re race/ Johnny Foreigner - this is about cash and monetisation to me, nothing else.

[MariaNovella]

Are you a Brexiter, Troopers?

[Trooperslaneagain]

I'll bite. OK. Jesus @MariaNovella hell no! I couldn't be less of a Brexiteer if I tried.

Just saying what I see and see the monetisation comment. That's what it's about. Plus my political leanings are none of your business - that post is factual and has nothing to do with anything else but my experience.

Out of interest, are you?

[Trooperslaneagain]

Ditto @irmafalyear
Ditto @pissedoffprof

Plus there's plenty of chancers on my course who are more local. But like I said, the pecking order and the focus on Cold. Hard. Cash.

[MariaNovella]

If you are not a Brexiter, I don’t understand this comment:

Like the Erasmus guys - who don’t pay and the Chinese and Indians who do.

[clande]

I was probably one of those international students. I am still struggling with the spontaneous daily chit-chat in English, but am reasonably fluent in the professional lingo in my area. Got a distinction in my Masters, all my course projects were edited and re-written several times to catch bad grammar and unclear sentences.
I often find that native English speakers in the UK often write down someone's language skills as poor if they simply have a strong or unusual accent, or don't get certain British cultural references (e.g. a quote from Only Fools and Horses).

[woodhill]

Who are Erasmus guys?

[Haveacupofcoffee]

Not at university level but when I did my access course there was a Lithuanian woman who struggled with written English - she used to email her essays to me and I used to correct the grammar and spelling for her before she submitted them to turn it in. I wouldn’t have classed it as cheating at all

[IrmaFayLear]

Oh, no, clande, I don't think anyone means anyone like you! I am frequently in absolute awe of people's language skills. It astounds me when people use idiomatic English and do throw in the odd Only Fools and Horses-type reference too!

No, what irks people is the presence of students who clearly are not up to par regarding language and the institution seems impotent or unwilling to confront the matter. It is pointless offering suggestions of how a university might deal with the problem (eg language tests upon arrival, not just during application or investigating work not being a student's own) if they haven't the least will to tackle the issue (because of financial considerations).

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

I know someone who has a sideline in correcting SPAG for scientific dissertations written by Chinese students. He knows very little about science, (though he has learned some from his work) and says the students are incredibly bright and hardworking.

[HollaHolla]

I work in a post-92, and I was also doing my MBA there. I was approached by an international student on my programme, to ‘see your essay’ on one module. She was clear she didn’t want to see it for tips/references/structure, but ‘just wanted to pass’. I had to report her, as I could have been implicated in an academic dishonesty case. The student then made an allegation of racism against me, and the institution. It was awful.
I can’t see a way out of this type of situation, sadly.

[Shimy]

@Confused

I believe there is a problem and that it is currently under investigation and some universities. Trying to avoid racism but foreign students are implicated

You've obviously jumped to the conclusion that 'foreign student' equals different race.

[IrmaFayLear]

I think Science is a little different. I remember when I was at university (80s) they were running English classes for everyone in the Engineering department.

As I posted upthread, dn did Law at a RG university and was taken aback at so many on the course whose spoken and written English was rudimentary. They had to do some sort of group work and dn said this exposed some of them, yet nothing was done.

[Songsofexperience]

trooper

I don't really get your point. If it's about cold hard cash (might be, I don't know) what does it have to do with being less harsh on French and Germans (EU) who pay the exact same as UK home students?

[EssentialHummus]

Right- then why turn this issue into one specifically about foreign students rather than a general problem with cheating in higher education?

I think this specific issue matters because it's well-known by academics/administrators (see those on this thread) and seems to be directly linked to the significantly higher fees these students pay.

My two cents: I was an international MSc student at UCL. Before I was admitted I had a 20-30 minute interview over the phone with the course tutors, asking about my motivation etc. A very easy, cheap way to see if someone can hold a conversation in English.

On the assessment side, if you move from coursework to exam condition assessment, this problem near-enough vanishes (I'm assuming that no one would go to the length of sneaking in a sub). Why isn't it being done? Maybe because these students' fees are keeping universities afloat.

And a final bit of anecdata: I used to tutor, and one day (I still don't know how he got my number) got called up by a member of the Qatari royal family who was studying at a RG uni in London. I went on to tutor (actually tutor, not write essays for) him for the remainder of his year. Someone in his position a) presumably didn't need the degree b) could have bought whatever he wanted. But he slogged through. And tutoring on Park Lane was ace .

[clande]

Oh, no, clande, I don't think anyone means anyone like you!
What I meant is that for a non-native speaker who learned the language as an adult, their language skills are likely to be lopsided. I have no issues with managing a team of native English speakers at work, but my midwife wrote in my notes that I have limited comprehension and "possible LD?" (which I think stands for learning difficulties ).

[SnowyAlpsandPeaks]

When I done my last degree I worked bloody well hard to get my grades in the 80%’s. Children at home, was at the library often until late. I was proud of my grades. Then I overhead a group of 7 classmates talking about how ‘easy’ it was to pass when you used your student loan to get someone else to write your essays. I was gobsmaked. These were social work students. I left my degree, because it suddenly made a mockery of it.

Dc is now at university and has several students who English for them is not a first language, some new to the UK, others not. He says group work and presentations are like pulling teeth as no one understands what they are saying. He actually asked me a few weeks ago ‘how do they get marked fairly, if as a group we can not understand them, then how does our lecturer understand them to mark them?’. They done role play a few weeks ago, and the lecturer for this module told a student ‘I’m sorry but I can not understand what you are saying, it’s not making sense’. The student got fairly angry, banged the table with his hand and said ‘I make sense. You just not understand me!’. They then apparently went around in circles with this discussion, before the lecturer said ‘okay I understand you’, but dc said they could all tell he was none the wiser and just wanted this guy to shut up. He too has questioned how they get such good marks, when they can not form an argument in English that can be understood.

[breeze44]

The international students that I know pay proofreaders to check their essays. Which is fine as long as it is in line with their department’s policy on proofreading. I also think that many students and universities have unrealistic expectations. Doing well in ielts is not necessarily enough to be able to write essays and dissertations to the standard required for masters or PhD.

[KnitFastDieWarm]

I’m a professional editor and I mostly work on SPAG for scientific journal articles and social science books (I.e. not something I know anything about and not something that’s being marked on SPAG) I learn loads of interesting stuff from talented academics and graduate students from all over the world. I do get the odd ‘can’t be arsed/coasting’ type and I just refuse to edit their work. I think there’s a big difference between having your hard work in a second or third language proofread to make sure your meaning is clear, and copying and pasting a load of crap together and passing it off as your own in my experience students, academics and authors from all cultures and language background can be either incredibly dedicated professionals or lazy borderline cheats - it’s a global issue.
I love my job, though when someone who has painstakingly researched and written a great paper in their second or third language gets it accepted by a top journal thanks to my proofreading, it’s a great feeling.

[anniehm]

The problem here has been overseas students asking for the exam questions in advance and money has been offered (and refused). Apparently in some countries you routinely can bribe lecturer for the exam paper in advance. The other problem is people trying to get medical exemption/dispensation for no real reason (and that is home students as well).

No proof of widespread cheating here though and very few overseas students are enrolled on arts courses which have more coursework

[SunburstsOrMarbleHalls]

I think now plagiarism software is in use it has been largely replaced by buying essays and dissertations. It's not even difficult to find people who offer these services. Potentially only obvious if a regular 2.2 student pays for a 1st or if it is a vastly different writing style to the student.

[MyKingdomForACaramel]

Copywriter here too - get approached a lot for this type of work.

[IrmaFayLear]

Just went off for a google on essay writing. I looked at the top-rated provider and I could order an A Level essay for £60. Or £30 for GCSE. And they say that it beats Turnitin.

That seems ridiculously cheap for the amount of work required for a decent bespoke essay. I wonder what the quality is like. I had half a mind to sign up to write essays (only half a mind!) as I thought my gems of worth would command a higher price!

[PissedOffProf]

clande, I can promise you we do not mean students like you at all! As a matter of fact, I am totally tolerant of 'bad English' and make sure that students in my classroom are comfortable speaking English with mistakes, as long as they actually speak! I would never mark anyone's assignment down for poor grammar as long as I understand what is written. But it is very decent of you to make sure that your assignments were proofread. I am sure your lecturers appreciated it.

The problem is the students who literally cannot speak English. I have a few personal tutees, for example, who just do not speak English at all. They do not understand questions such as "are you happy with your accommodation?". It's impossible for me to have any sort of meaningful conversation with them. I have no idea how they got into a UK university or how they will get through their assignments and exams.