to be rather concerned about my nephew

[Corkleg]

He’s 8. We are visiting his family, staying in a hotel (and I’m up because the minibar is making a noise) and we all went to a family party today. Nephew knew everyone there, his mum was there and he was very tricky. Pushing ahead of everyone, shouting, sulking when he couldn’t get his own way, interrupting the entertainer, and all in a very loud voice. His mum just lets him get on with it and had disappeared to talk to other relatives. I was chatting to his mum later and she mentioned he had been tested for something or other as he keeps getting into trouble at school but whoever it was said he was fine so that’s that. And yet it seemed obvious that there IS something going on. Another cousin has a child in the same class and said he’s very loud, interrupts the teacher all the time and is very bossy with the other kids.

All of this is none of my business except my (rather tipsy) brother confided in me that he’s worried that his boy just gets on everyone’s nerves and seems to have no idea, and what did I think. I said I did think there was something but I didn’t know what (and that I’m sure he’ll be fine, lovely boy, reassurance etc etc)
But what does behaviour like that generally point to?

[jessstan2]

Quite agree differentnameforthis. The poor kid is only eight, it's up to his parents to set boundaries but kids often do act up at family parties, they get over excited; sometimes it ends in tears, vomit, and they are told off when they go home. I've seen it happen loads of times, even saw one get drunk once! You can imagine how mortified his parents were but one gets over these things.

[CommanderDaisy]

Behaviour like this points to rubbish parenting not a medical diagnosis.

If he's not instructed at home on not to interrupt, modify his voice, not to push in etc of course it will carry on to school and he will have no idea how to behave properly. Both your brother and SIL need to co-ordinate themselves on how they will respond to these behaviours.

I am a manners Nazi, and both my boys behaved like this occasionally when younger and over-excited, but I wasn't standing there gently shushing away. More forceful intervention that is consistent was required. In the scenarios you describe my response would be -

Push in - go to the back of the line
If you interrupt you are removed from the situation after a warning
Refuse to stop shouting - removed from the situation and have a talk about inside voices.
Standing on chairs - told to get down or picked up and taken down. Do it again and we leave.
Throwing food - food removed from child as it obviously wasn't hungry and child made to clean it up. Do it again, we leave and no you don't get replacements for the food you tossed.
Not do as you are told - TV time reduced or device time, or a treat refused.

Sorry but your SIL should be embarrassed. There are obviously no boundaries at home and he is not being taught how to behave in public.

If he has not been taught what is acceptable and what is not - of course he'll have no idea.

[Gone4Good]

I agree with above poster, it's rubbish parenting.

[Corkleg]

My brother takes his lead from SIL. I don’t know why, but he does. I think the bit that confuses me is that even when he’s told off by adults, he doesn’t flinch. The most obnoxious kids I’ve come across at least have the good grace to look a bit shamefaced, but DN just doesn’t. The entire world is literally just about him.

[Aprilshowersarecomingsoon]

Maybe getting scowls off others is his only attention if sil ignores and db turns a blind eye also.

[Corkleg]

My aunt made a comment yesterday that stuck with me. She said that SIL is scared of him. Not in a physical way but she’s scared to upset him in case he thinks she doesn’t love him.

Re the cottage, I ran it past my dad and he has suggested getting a couple of cottages together so that DN can be in his own space. That’s a better compromise but after yesterday I think it’ll still be bloody hard going.

I keep thinking about him standing on the chair at the dining table, feet away from his mum. WTF?

[Snowyberry]

Your brother sounds worse than your SIL if he's so lazy he just copies how your SIL (doesn't) deal with him and can't be bothered to think for himself how to deal with him, let alone make the required effort. What a useless excuse for a dad!

[HomeMadeMadness]

Was your brother not there, there seems to be alot of talk about sil not stepping in which of course she should have done but so should the boy's dad.

I think it's impossible to say whether he has SN or whether he just has a loud personality and hasn't been taught to moderate himself for different situations.

[Corkleg]

No my brother came along later and took him off to another activity.

I don’t think there is any point saying anything. They clearly just have different levels of acceptable behaviour. If he brings it up again i will talk about it but I suspect that SIL will take it as a personal affront because there was no way that she shouldn’t have stepped in.

[MitziK]

That he's a spoiled brat.

Any child has the capacity to be one - and if she's scared to discipline him and the father won't do anything, he can do anything he wants.

Nothing medical. Just been brought up to be a tyrannical little brat.

[Booboostwo]

My DH’s goddaughter is similar. Her parents have a very odd parenting style, they don’t believe in passing on their values onto their DCs to allow them full freedom to develop as their own people. So she is never pulled up on anything. As a consequence she has always been an unpleasant child, which is an awful thing to say about a child but she is just not likable. When she’s given a present she says ‘You should spend more money on me’, when DH asked her a question when she was on the phone she spat at his face and called him a fat idiot...she’s 13yo! I think her parents have done her a huge disservice.

If you think something similar may be going on with your DN you might want to try to speak with your brother but he isn’t very likely to become defensive unless you are very diplomatic.

[Corkleg]

She spat at him!!! Oh my actual god! What did he do? Did he go and tell her parents? Or give her some “feedback”?

Other bro has just been and I suggested he ask her why she didn’t stop him throwing food and chanting, so he’s going to mention it to other bro when he sees him. I think she thinks it’s entertaining in some way too, when he’s the centre of attention.

[Silkie2]

I think that the non reprimanding and lack of boundaries can seem to the child that his DPs dont care, imagine you are throwing food and standing on the chair and your DM barely interrupts her conversation - I mean the child is not going to think ' mum lives me so much she isn't saying anything' he's going to think how bloody outrageously can I behave to get her to care or to give me attention. And the lack of unterest in other adults comments is because he is desperate for his DPs to care, others don't matter. Does the boy get much attention from the DPs because they want his company or is it just duty?

[Corkleg]

They adore him. He is the KING of their lives. My SIL wasn’t disinterested, she was standing feet away, watching!

[OftenHangry]

Sooo. You know how everyone always wonders where these wildlings on a street, terrorising neigbourhoods, drug dealing and stabbing people come from?

From parents like this...

[Corkleg]

Gosh! I hope secondary school sorts him out a bit, but that’s years off. He’s so bright and was the most adorable baby! Please please let this be a phase!

[Booboostwo]

Her father was sitting at the same table right next to DH. He did not react to her spitting and swearing, it’s his thing, he has to remain neutral. It is a bonkers parenting approach and has caused this little girl problems that it will take her a long time to overcome. DH told her that her behaviour was unacceptable and the older she became the more people she would come across who would find it unacceptable. The father still didn’t say anything.

[Booboostwo]

I remembered another classic with this little girl. She was about 4yo and DH was over at their place. He needed the toilet and she followed him so he told her she could not go into the toilet with him as he wanted to pee. The father intervened and said they had an open doors policy in their house so that she would not feel restricted, and the toilet door should stay open! DH ignored him.

[Corkleg]

Bloody hell. Her parents are setting her up for a cracker! I’ve come across educators who believe in natural consequences but also will step in and explain the nuances that the child won’t be able to see. But that’s dreadful.

[Poloshot]

I think from what you've said it points to needing some discipline and taught manners.

[Poloshot]

That story about being spat at is horrendous. As she's 13 it won't be long before she upsets people who will definitely put her straight, be it at school or whatever. It'll be a tough lesson.

[Merryoldgoat]

I actually have had a old friendship end because of parenting, I posted about it at the time and got mixed responses.

There were a few things at play but the crux of it was I found their parenting completely at odds with mine. They treat their children like deities to be in awe of and, as such, they’re extremely difficult children to like.

I have a 5yo DS - he has HFA and whilst some social situations can be a challenge for us, he is generally well behaved and would never get up on chairs because we wouldn’t allow it - SEN isn’t a reason to absolve yourself from imposing discipline and boundaries. If anything it’s even more important.

[3WildOnes]

OftenHangry I work with families like you describe and the children don’t tend to get to that stage from this kind of parenting. Infact there is often lots of physical discipline and very little affection shown, dv, absent dads etc,.
Sometimes parents are afraid to discipline in public because the child will kick off and become aggressive. It’s quite rare for parents not to realise that the behaviour is anti social.
I would speak to your brother and suggest a parenting class and that they seek help from camhs.

[Corkleg]

Goodness, I’m not sure what kind of family I’ve described - both my brother and SIL are professionals, and DN goes to lots of activities. They both work very long hours and there might be a bit of guilt about how much time he spends in classes and childcare. No hint at all about DV or absenteeism.

[3WildOnes]

Corkleg I was responding to OftenHangry who was suggesting that their parenting and this permissive type of parenting leads to children becoming drug dealers, hooligans and murderers. I was disagreeing. They sound like they love him but are unable to enforce boundaries for whatever reason. In my experience of working with families permissive but loving parenting doesn’t generally lead to what OftenHangry was suggesting, that kind of behaviour results from absent parents, do, lack of affection and excessive physical discipline.