Friend ‘escorting’ for money

[blinkuncertain]

She’s a single parent and does this at nights. It’s a terrible idea and I’m so against it but she keeps saying it’s the only way. What can I do?

[justabunchofbunting]

It can go very badly but not always. Its certainly a dangerous thing to be doing. My friend did it for quite some time and it did have a damaging effect on her. Its a lot harder psychologically than it can first appear. It really messed my friend up. And she worked for a reasonable seeming agency that had its own apartments and did decent photoshoots and was quite supportive in terms of backing its workers up if they felt at risk from a client etc

Problem is it can end up being very isolating. My friend did not really have anyone to talk to about it apart from people who didnt really understand. I mean I tried to be supportive but Ive never done it so at the end of the day I did not really know what she was going through.
She became quite depressed and started drinking and taking drugs. The people she was around could be quite shady people and she slipped into this world of dealing with things by just being wasted all the time.

Obviously this isnt the case for everyone who does it. But I do think its less 'easy money' than it seems.... even if you really love sex in general its gonna actually take a massive toll on you to essentially be 'used' in this manner constantly... even if you have your eyes wide open about it all.
The men used to 'review' the girls from her agency online as though they were cars or gadgets or something.... really weird concept and I cant really imagine the long term effect it has on you. Theres the stigma and the risk of violence against you as well.
I imagine if you are doing it long term its going to make a lot of women very anxious and mistrustful. Certainly it did my friend who got through it all by just making sure she was always wasted.

Although I do not judge women who do it I certainly dont think its a very good idea to be doing that long term as a 'career'. Certainly not for the agencies anyway. Im sure there may be some women who set up their own online stuff who may fare better....

I certainly support it being legalised as the safety of the women doing it would improve. That to me is the most important thing not some ideological belief over whether it is morally right or wrong. Women are doing it, some of their own free will and some who are forced, and they need proper protection and to be able to help each other and speak freely about their situation. Not to be made criminals or put in dangerous situation because they cant speak to anyone about it without cutting off their only access to money or shelter.

[ReanimatedSGB]

And a big current problem is that a lot of the tactics being used to 'rescue' sex workers are actually making life much more difficult and dangerous for them. The shutting down of internet sites where sex workers advertise and where clients can contact them is making it a lot harder to screen clients. The 'Nordic model' makes it harder to negotiate with clients as the non-dangerous ones are scared of arrest and this makes them reluctant to give any information away at the screening stage, and also makes it difficult for sex workers who work the streets to spend enough time talking to a client to judge whether or not the client is dangerous. The obsession with closing down 'brothels' makes it riskier for sex workers to work together and look out for each other.

[anothernewoneforthis]

poundingthestreets I think what can be learned from this thread is that there is a distinction between women who being pimped or trafficked or coerced or desperate, where there is much higher risk, and women who are able to choose clients and to a much greater extent mitigate risks. Do you agree?

And that more should be done to raise awareness and push for political and social change to (a) totally eliminate pimped/trafficked/coerced/forced to do it for money and (b) legalise sex work for those who are freely choosing to do it so as to give greater protection. Do you agree?

In terms of risk to women, we are at risk from the legal ways of having sex, whether casual sex which goes wrong or dv within marriages.

Before this thread I saw prostitution in one dimensional terms and, basically, bad. After having read the thread, I realise (and respect the fact that) some women choose to do it and I don't find that wrong morally or in any other respect. It is a choice. If my dh saw a sex worker I would say I had a dh problem, not a sex worker problem.

Where I used to live there was a long road running between two areas of north london with a park on one side. You would often see groups of women who looked perfectly normal from a distance but close up their skin was as damaged as leather, they were skin and bones on some areas of their body not others. You would see them all hours from early morning to late. And nearby you'd see a couple of men who would talk to them from time to time, and the talk was fake "everything is ok" joking around. They were the pimps I am sure. And the women would disappear into the bushes with punters every now and then. It was beyond grim. It was frightening, disgusting that these women were being treated like slaves in open view. It is this which should be stamped out. That is partly to do with police work, presumably, and partly to do with our country's utterly inadequate social nets. Do you agree? What can be done?

I think that women should have choice, and that people should not be modern slaves.

[PoundingTheStreets]

Ethylred, there is a lot of data out there. I can list you the main studies if you like, but if you want a sum up you can take a look at the Home Affairs Committee report on Prostitution in the UK which was published two years ago. To pull out one point: "Sex workers have an average of 25 clients per week paying an average of £78 per visit" rather shows that there must be a lot of lower-paid sex workers to produce that average, in much the same way that the small number of high earners in the City has an impact on national average salary in the UK.

As I'm sure you're well aware, the trouble with this area of research is that due to its covert nature it is impossible to obtain truly accurate data, but until we find a way around that, we have to work on the data we have, the lived experiences of current and former sex workers, and the organisations who offer support to those either in the sex trade or trying to exit it.

That's not perfect and sadly those working through the internet are largely missing from the evidence, but my work involves regular contact with those in the sex trade and I have met many women (and a handful of men), at different levels, none of whom are living lucrative lifestyles I can assure you and among whom far too many have been raped, abused, beaten and ripped off.

[Ethylred]

" For every £1000 a night escort (and most don't earn anywhere near that), there are countless more working on the streets or through adult hook-up sites for a tiny fraction of that, "

Define "countless".

After you've done that, tell us where you found your data.

[PoundingTheStreets]

Even if you can treat sex with strangers as fun (and many people can), even if you can enjoy sex as a lucrative job, it's not that simple.

Sex carries far more risk for women than it does with men. Women experience assaults, sexual assaults and rape far more so than women (I'm comparing males experiencing sexual assault by penetration). Sex workers (from the class-A addict on the street corner through to the so-called high-class escort) experience this in even higher numbers. They also have far more likelihood of catching STIs even when using condoms, and may end up becoming unintentional mothers or facing an abortion.

Workers rights don't exist in the same way and reporting a crime which has taken place as a result of working in this industry to the police is less likely to happen because of the belief that it won't be taken seriously and even when it is it is notoriously difficult to prove and often involves horrendous cross examination in court. The men who commit these acts know this and can often act with impunity while the individuals who profit from organising sex work for others know they will never experience scrutiny along the same lines as other industries and are even less likely to be taken to an employment tribunal by one of their employees.

Now you could argue that the greater risks are why the pay is so good, but for the majority of female sex workers, it simply isn't. For every £1000 a night escort (and most don't earn anywhere near that), there are countless more working on the streets or through adult hook-up sites for a tiny fraction of that, with no pension or NI contributions that will ensure their entitlement to benefits at a later date and little criminal justice safety net to protect them when things go wrong. That's the reality for the majority.

Working as a cleaner - or any other arguably exploitative but mainstream and culturally acceptable job - doesn't carry anywhere near the equivalent risk to health and wellbeing.

[Alpineflowers]

clumsyduck-I still honestly can't see why it's the sex workers problem if the man is married ?

I didn't say it was brazenhussy's (who has made a few long in the topic) problem as such, I asked if she ever considered the wife and family of her clients.

[clumsyduck]

I still honestly can't see why it's the sex workers problem if the man is married ?

Why do women seem to have to shoulder some of the blame for all men's problems ?

[anothernewoneforthis]

But most clients are married or in a relationship I really don't know why you would think you know this @alpineflowers. I have to say I assumed the opposite. I can think of lots of men with partners who come on to other women/go to lap dancing clubs/have affairs, but can think of only one who saw prostitutes. On the other hand, of all the single men I know there are quite a few who I could imagine would go to independent sex workers (as opposed to a sex worker who is being pimped) rather than try to have casual one night stands.

[Alpineflowers]

ReanimatedSGB-Not all sex workers' clients have partners or children. Alpine. Some men prefer to pay a sex worker because they don't have the time or the inclination for a longterm relationship.

But most clients are married or in a relationship. The vast majority probably. Prostitutes know this and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask if they consider the wife and any children. It might affect the wifes health or break up a home. We see topics about it on MN, how devastated the wifes are when they find out

And, even if the client is married, that's his problem. Not the sex worker's.

I think it is both their problem. They are in a type of relationship, however brief, the men will often go back to the same prostitute. Apart from the deceit, money is exchanged, what should be the families money

[AssassinatedBeauty]

Where is the shaming of sexual workers?

And why is an expectation of monogamy wrong for those in relationships where that is the vow or the understanding? By all means don't be monogamous but don't deceive other people and put them at risk of STDs without their knowledge.

Plus, the OP in this thread isn't genuine, as MNHQ have said. They've left the thread up as the debate was interesting. No need to chide the OP, other than for posting disingenuous posts!

[ReanimatedSGB]

Not all sex workers' clients have partners or children. Alpine. Some men prefer to pay a sex worker because they don't have the time or the inclination for a longterm relationship.

And, even if the client is married, that's his problem. Not the sex worker's.

[Ohbehave1]

Good to see those that want to shame sex workers are alive, well, and vocal. And they are joined by those for who the script of monogamy is ingrained by those that think they know better.

Her body, her choice. And I hope she has better friends than you.

[Alpineflowers]

brazenhussy-Personally, I enjoy casual sex – really get a kick out of it. If I can make a good earning at the same time then why shouldn’t I? I don’t attach any kind of deeper meaning to sex and I don’t give away part of myself or my body when I see a client. It’s just shagging, a chat, a cuppa then a nice wad of money at the end of the day...

Interesting reading.
Hope you don't mind me asking but do you ever think about your 'clients' family, their wife and children? It's just that you don't mention being concerned about them at all. How a wife or gf might feel if they knew what their husband was doing behind their back and how he was spending the 'cash'

[velvetcandy]

I know someone who does this too. Takes all her benefits and does this 4 days a week and is quite well off! She's a more "higher class" one though

[anothernewoneforthis]

@brazenhussy0 thanks so much for the reply. I hope that this thread stays up because I think that there is a lot to learn from it.

[expatinscotland]

'Yet those who don't want to become prostitutes will do menial jobs... cleaning, becoming housegirls, selling water, bread etc on the roadside for a living.

The women and girls there might argue they really don't have a choice ..... which is a far cry from the UK. '

Prostitution absolutely blooms in places like this. And the menial jobs employees often get treated like utter shite and just as at risk for being abused and trafficked.

[ReanimatedSGB]

I remember a sex worker friend of mine some time ago being infuriated by a scheme set up to 'get sex workers into respectable work and give them training.' The training was in how to use a sewing machine/dressmaking. FFS. How much demand is there for these skills, at anything like a living wage?

[Awwlookatmybabyspider]

There's no shame in earning a honest living, and whatever anyone's thoughts.
She is going out and earning an honest living.

[Brazenhussy0]

@anothernewoneforthis
Yes, I have always been ok with the idea of being paid for sex. In my mind, it isn’t much different from other intimate services like having your vulva waxed, full body massages, or even the level of mental intimacy needed in psychology/psychiatry sessions.
But that’s just how I feel about it. Like I said, we’re all different and have different boundaries and limitations.

I do appreciate I’m in the fortunate position of being able to pick and choose which clients I see. A working girl who works the streets (much rarer these days I must add) and who has a drug addiction to pay for is unlikely to do the same level of client screening as indoor independents, and is probably more likely to take bigger risks for lower rates.
But I don’t know, because I’ve never been drug addicted or working the streets. Most of us aren’t in that position and help should be provided for those who are.

A blanket ban on purchasing sex wouldn’t/doesn’t solve any of the real-world problems in prostitution. The likes of the Nordic Model don’t end sex work, or make it any safer, but it does give governments brownie points from people who don’t know anything about the sex industry beyond their own feelings about sex and incorrect assumptions about what actually goes on in the paid-sex scene.

[InTheGhetto]

but remember one thing, even in a marriage women will use sex to get what they want. Surely in a way you are prostituting yourself there too.

Pure misogyny.

[SmileEachDay]

Beaver completely agree that trafficking doesn’t just pertain to prostitution. Sex workers are the subject of this thread, though.

It’s a shame you don’t want to engage in debate - but that is, of course, your right.

[Beaverhausen]

SmileEachDay you will find that trafficking and modern day slavery does not just pertain to prostitution. But because it is offensive to you that there is a large majority of women who choose to take up the profession of prostitution, porn, phone chat, webcamming it is wrong, so they must be victims, trafficked, abused, addicts etc.

I am not going to debate this with someone who has a one track mind and is not openminded on the sex industry but remember one thing, even in a marriage women will use sex to get what they want. Surely in a way you are prostituting yourself there too.

[SmileEachDay]

The sex industry can be very isolating especially with how other women perceive it and judge a working girls decision to do it

Nope. The issue with the sex industry is the coercion, violence, abuse, commodification, high levels of drug addiction.

I also think “working girl” is a problematic label. It’s cute and infantilising.

[anothernewoneforthis]

@notthefordtype I didn't say anything about value. You wrote "Nobody (unless they are incredible physically attractive, which probably draws its own set of problems) can just "go out and get sex"" and I asked you if you were talking about men when you wrote that ie I wanted to know whether you were referring to men or women or both?