Wibu to request a meeting with ds nursery keywprker over this.

[Aspieparent]

Now I don't want to be one of those parents and I appreciate nursery staff and teachers do there best and are often stretched to the limits.
My ds is 4 in pre school has developmental language disorder, development delay in every area, sensory issues, anxiety and also has poor muscle tone and stiffness in his leg which often causes pain and has been worse since the cold weather has hit.
I dropped him off for his session today and he said to the staff that he didn't want to go Forrest school. Is sensory issues cause him to struggle with the wind and rain which makes him super anxious and the cold his making him struggle more with his legs. I was telling them that he's suffering more with his legs but she didn't listen instead she spoke over me to ds and said tough there is no option to be in doors he has to go outside and that he would be able to sit at a table on the decking and colour. They do have outdoor heaters on the decking but aren't allowed near enough to benefit from them due to health and safety. I was pretty gob smacked at this and my face dropped. She then said he could colour in a little room on his own for a few minutes but he would have to go out after. The room in question is freezing as the doors open all the time as it's the entrance and exit from Forrest school.
I have once refused to take him to nursery on Forrest school day due to him being out in the cold and hurting nursery said that was best as if they ok to go to nursery they are ok to be out for the full session regardless of the weather.
Am I being to precious or should they be accomdating the fact that the could makes his issues to his legs alot worse.

[peachgreen]

Ah thanks @Ceto, I missed that. I guess it depends on how much the additional funding is - that's probably what will define "reasonable adjustment".

[Goldenbug]

I can see the point of forest schools and outside learning areas - except where they do the same as they would do indoors, but colder and in a far more uncomfortable place.
Why, in freezing weather, do they sit writing or reading a book? Surely the point of being outside is to do outside stuff?

Because the people who run the places and think that's a good idea don't work with the children and see the consequences. They've got a headline stuck in their minds about "everything you can do indoors can also be done outdoors". Drives me mad too. I'll go start a thread in Nurseries later so as to not derail here. (And I love being outdoors BTW)

[Goldenbug]

Seems like your choices are leave, don't leave but complain and report constantly about them not caring for your child properly, or don't leave and don't complain. I'd pick the "leave" option.

[hazeyjane]

Sorry, I couldn't see if you said whether he has early years inclusion funding? (which should provide a 1-1 for him, and for which an echp is unnecessary)

If he does, then it is appalling to me that they haven't worked around this....to be honest even if they haven't got a 1-1, I think they should be working out a way to provide for him in the time they ate at forest school.

Some children are completely overwhelmed by extremes of temperature because of their sensory issues (and I mean extreme to them....not that it has to be Arctic!) Some children have complex health issues that mean they find it difficult to maintain their body temperature. Some childrens joints stiffen and become painful. Some children struggle with outdoor clothes because if sensory issues. Some children struggle to move around enough to help them stay warm......these issues should be worked with, not treated as a pain in the arse for them.

I am so saddened by your posts, please don't worry about being 'that parent' a 'pfb' or anything else that implies you are doing anything worse than fighting to have your sons needs supported.

The preschool should be working with you for the benefit of your child, and they are not. You have every right to be angry about that.

[Ceto]

peachgreen, the OP says they have funding for additional help.

[peachgreen]

@ceto How do they have funding for it? (This is a genuine question, not goady!) From what I can gather, OP's DS doesn't have a formal care plan in place yet?

However OP has clarified that the nursery had already agreed to make reasonable adjustments (DS only going outside for an hour) and they're now failing to honour these which is obviously unreasonable.

[Aspieparent]

You know what I don't have a problem with Forrest school. My 3 year old is at the same nursery and absolutely bloody loves it. Comes home wet cold muddy and happy.
My 4 year old hates not only in the winter but summer too. He doesn't like it full stop. Previously before September he was always given the option to go or not go.
I don't have a problem with them wanting him to spends some time out there and trying to get him involved it's how they do it with him. If they worked with him and used the ideas we agreed.
When they say tough you have to go he hides refuses even more to go out. He either spends time hiding behind the welly rack or sat on the floor in his room refusing to move. I have sat with him for 20 minutes and watch staff get to the point they are angry because he won't move this doesn't help.
I have provided and given them all sorts of warm clothing me or them can't get it on him with out screaming meltdown and he will only stop once it's taken off. He isn't benefiting from any of this nether are the other children or staff. I honestly thought they would be more sympathetic in the colder months when he is hurting more.

[SugarRush123]

Why is he getting so cold? Is he wearing proper padded outdoor clothing such as ski-suit/snow suit?

This ^

A standard nursery uniform is ridiculous, and thermal layers won't cut it either. In all of mainland Europe, it's perfectly normal for children to play outside for most of the day, even in deep snow and freezing temperatures, and - shock, horror - it's actually good for them, even for children with all kinds of disabilities. The key is properly warm clothing, which it doesn't sound like your DS is in if the coldness affects his limb stiffness.

OP, you say that the nursery have some all-in-ones - these are likely to be simple waterproofs as opposed to proper warm, padded snowsuits. For the sake of your DS, invest in some PROPER winter gear, which he can also use for weekends and holidays. It will transform his little life, honestly!

I would have LOVED for my children to have the chance to take part in weekly Forest School sessions, rather than being confined inside for "wet play" (ie watching a DVD) as soon as there was a drop of rain or a snowflake. But I would never rely on nursery/school to provide suitable clothing. Children who are warm and dry generally love outdoor play, but as soon as any part of their bodies (including hands and feet) get cold and wet of course they will start to grumble and prefer to be inside - depriving them of so many positives of playing outdoors (general health, concentration, IQ even have all been found to improve through Forest School sessions).

[Ceto]

@ceto I'm not sure providing one-on-one supervision away from the rest of the class for a full day a week counts as "reasonable adjustment" though.

Why not, given that they have funding for it?

[Nanny0gg]

I can see the point of forest schools and outside learning areas - except where they do the same as they would do indoors, but colder and in a far more uncomfortable place.

Why, in freezing weather, do they sit writing or reading a book? Surely the point of being outside is to do outside stuff?

[Aspieparent]

I think I will leave this thread now. I have explained myself I have got a view of opinions I wanted and alot more understanding on how sn and reasonable adjustments are viewed. It's given me a more better idea how to handle this and how I need to help people understand is difficulties more.

[Aspieparent]

I never said I didn't want going outside because he has a cold.

I live in a not so good area for sen and L.A. unfortunately. We are currently awaiting on a panel to see of they will do a educational physiology assesment. I have said a few times I am going to remove him from nursery and hv and peadiatricion have told me I can't has it won't be good for him as all he really wants to do is stay at home as he doesn't like being around his peers.

[typetytypetypes]

Hi Aspie, as others have said if you haven’t gone to the SN boards there is a lot of support and knowledge there.

I don’t know your personal and local authority situation, so this is just from my experience. When we were midway through gathering evidence DS2’s EHCP we ended up pulling him out of his preschool for similar reasons (he wasn’t being handled correctly and after a lot of back and forth we felt we simply couldn’t let him continue there, even though generally it was a nice setting). He has been at home for several months now. This wasn’t an issue though, we had some input from the setting up until the point he left, then we had the Ed Psych and SALT from the local authority do a home visit to collect further evidence. He got his EHCP and named nursery that is good for SEN support which he starts in the new year.

However, I live in a relatively good LA for SEN support so I can totally understand if that really can’t happen elsewhere, but just to let you know that we were able to manage that without issue. Hope you get a resolution soon I would feel similarly to you in the circumstances.

[Dermymc]

You are being PFB about going outside when he has a cold. Fresh air is good and going from inside to out repeatedly isn't good for your lungs.

Have you tried a fleece all in one, like a baby snowsuit but for a bigger child? I have seen older children up to 7-8 in them so they must be avaliable.

YANBU about their methods of dealing with him to some extent. Leaving him to cry and taking away his blanket are not acceptable. However expecting a nicely nicely explanation every time you want him to do something is impossible in a mainstream setting.

"reasonable adjustment" gets banded about. There is no official definition of this. Remember any proposals have to be reasonable for the staff too.

[Aspieparent]

I haven't spoken to them about it in this way I have always let him lead the conversation best he can while helping them understand his language as he has his own little language at times that most people don't understand.
I am trying so hard to keep it together I have been told on occasions that they refuse to do reports the L.A. have requested as they don't have the time. I am so frustrated with myself that I picked the wrong nursery and they really isn't much I can do about it at this moment in time.

[Aspieparent]

She said it was a new term but she said with him it is really obvious. She did some ready for school assessments in is last session and said he really is a very interesting complex case. He had a picture of a circle, square and a coloured pink blob she asked him which 2 went together he said you put that (circle) on that (square) and that (coloured blob) sticks it together. He may have issues but you know what we all chuckled though that assements though his reasoning it was so different yes and yes not the answer she was looking for but was amazing to see how he works.

[littleducks]

You aren't coming across as horrible!

But the way you describe forest school does come across as though you don't value it very highly. It may be that staff are picking up on this if you speak in a similar way to them and so are attributing some of your son's difficulties to a perceived 'attitude' on your part rather than his additional needs.

[littleducks]

I'm not criticising his diagnosis in any way btw, I was just interested as it is unusual (few children have a DLD diagnosis at all as it is new terminology and it was recommended-not set in stone only recommended- for over 5 )

[Aspieparent]

Sorry if i come across as horrible.
I actually have aspergers so I am very to the point exact and factual. Which cause me no end of problems.

[Aspieparent]

From what I have just read on DLD

DLD is defined purely in behavioural terms: there is no biological test. There are three points that need to be met for a diagnosis of DLD:[1]

The child has language difficulties that create obstacles to communication or learning in everyday life,
The child's language problems are unlikely to resolve by five years of age, and
The problems are not associated with a known biomedical condition such as brain injury, neurodegenerative conditions, genetic conditions or chromosome disorders such as Down Syndrome, sensorineural hearing loss, or Autism Spectrum Disorder or Intellectual Disability.

[littleducks]

If the cold affecting his legs is a recent problem (or the effect it has on his participation is recent as previously he wasn't getting cold) perhaps nursery were hoping/expecting it to be less of an issue.

Honestly.. you posted more while I was typing my last reply and I think from what you have said it might be better while the statutory needs assessment is being completed to not send him to forest school sessions.

[Aspieparent]

And age of the DLD diagnosis is 4.

[Aspieparent]

Hot water bottles and heat pads aren't allowed. Apart from a base layer I have tried everything regarding clothing. He will not move around much at Forrest school as it's mainly on the side of a big hill and can't climb it and the rest is a mud patch and he refuses to get dirty. They only thing they have managed to get him to do at Forrest his stand and use the water pump.
My opinions don't come into it. It about dealing with him in the way he needs. An extremely anxious child needs better handling than tough that's not my opinion it's a new. I don't like it when people refer to what my opinion is and what I want it's all about what he needs for his needs.
It was written in a SALT report that he was presenting with development language disorder last time we went to SALT and was discussing the report I said that he is presenting with DLD and she said he definately does have DLD.
The peadiatricion hasn't been dealing with his legs it's been podiatry and physio so far and waiting on ot. The cold making things worse has only happened in last few weeks but say that we've always struggled with walking and he was in a pram with cosy toes when out on winter most of the time last year.

[littleducks]

I understand you can't move him easily at present but it does sound like its not a good fit between your opinions and nursery and nursery and his needs,

I'm not sure if YABU about the forest school from what you have said.

What does his paediatrician/consultant advise about his legs? Does he have a care plan saying he should be kept warm?

I think you really need to look at clothing options to see if he can be included, a hat with gloves and scarf doesn't sound like quite enough for forest school in December even without his additional needs. Could you provide a hot water bottle or heat pads, would that help? I expect if he was moving he wouldn't feel so cold as sitting colouring but sounds like he needs to feel more comfortable to start moving about so a viscous circle.

Also just out of academic interest what age did he get the DLD diagnosis? It wasn't recommended to be given prior to 5 when introduced so its interesting to hear about how it is being used in different places.

[Aspieparent]

In my dcs (I also have a 3 year old in same nursery) nursery each room has A day allocated for Forrest school. On there set day they spend full day in Forrest including meals and snacks on decking and the younger groups if napping nap in tents. Once it's got to freezing temperatures meals and snacks are now inside and they have staff on room for children who nap.