To not know what to do about inappropriate sexual behaviour.

[Seenthelightnow]

I did post this in Chat last night but it's slipped off the first page and I am keen to get some responses so apologies for duplicate post.
I’m a paramedic, often working on my own obviously going into peoples homes. Virtually every week I experience some sort of sexually motivated behaviour. It ranges from the ‘ do you fancy a fuck.’ ‘would you like to hold my willy while I have a piss’ to physical grabbing and touching. That’s not even counting the elderly patients with dementia.
It happens to us all and we just extract ourselves from the situation and laugh it off but it frequently makes us feel uncomfortable and sometimes unsafe.

It wasn’t until recently when I saw a young, gay, male crewmate being propositioned by an elderly ( not dementia) patient in the most sexually explicit way, and how upset it made him feel, that I realised how much we normalise almost constant sexual harassment and assault when directed at women. Talking to my gay colleagues the above seems to be much less common.

Why is it that men, mainly in the 20-50 age range seem to think it’s amusing to make women feel uncomfortable and unsafe when we’re simply doing our job and is there anything we can do to prevent it or to feel safer?

Btw I have nc’d for this but have been around since 2007.

[Bunnyfuller]

Police only retain footage if it will be used evidentially, so that would cover the 'filmed when unwell'. It would actually be very useful for paramedics for any witch hunts on a 'missed diagnosis' if they have footage clearly showing what the pt says and them not looking 'big sick' at that point etc.

Police were a bit ambivalent about them being introduced but they're fab. They also assist with training new officers.

[whiskyowl]

Isn't Maltby's case that this made her feel professionally uncomfortable - because she was actually working with Green in various positions?? Her statement is that he made her feel "awkward, embarrassed and professionally compromised" (my italics).

There's nothing wrong with being in a pub with a bloke - I do this all the time, it is normal in my line of work. But a murmur about how "understanding" one's wife is, in the context of a conversation on cheating, accompanied by a fleeting touch, is surely sleaze territory. I'm not making any inferences from that to actions that should or shouldn't be taken against him - and I am aware that so far we only have one side of this story - but I do think that it does appear to constitute a pretty clear-cut sexual advance. I don't think the duration of the relationship makes much difference to the inappropriacy, really. If anything, it makes it worse!!

[Seenthelightnow]

I think the first thing that needs to happen is for management to treat it as serious. As we gradually get more women in positions of power within the service hopefully it will change.
kateandme We are well used to character changes caused by illness and the vast majority of us will take it on the chin, deflect,distract and get on with treatment. It’s not those patients I’m complaining about.
It’s the ones, for example, who’ve had a non specific pain for years, you get there and miraculously the pain moves into a very specific point in their groin and they want a massage.
Historically an old fashioned look was enough to stop them in their tracks but it doesn’t seem to be any more.
Surely there can be a balance between teaching unthinking respect which can lead to hidden abuse and the almost total lack of respect that exists in a certain sector of society today.

[whiskyowl]

Trafalgar - well said. I hate the "it's trivilalising rape" argument, and I say that as a rape victim.

Let's get it straight: plenty of people DO trivialise rape (the "what were you wearing, had you been drinking, surely you must have contributed to this in some way) and it's incredibly hard because of this to have it dealt with properly in the criminal justice system (though progress is being made, it is slow).

It is often those SAME people who trivialise sexual assault and harrassment, and some of them are the SAME people who perpetuate it.

Rather than being opposed to each other (trivial sexual harassment v serious rape) the two are on a continuum (sexual harassment---> rape). It's only by taking BOTH seriously that we will give women the dignity and power and institutional and legal support that they need to end this pervasive problem.

[Mittens1969]

Minimising happens all the time, I find, that’s what’s happening here with Green, the suggestion that it wasn’t so bad because she’d known him for a long time. His flirting was clearly not welcome and made Maltby uncomfortable. That makes it an unwelcome sexual advance.

[ArcheryAnnie]

Thing is, ShatnersWig, the world is full of men who think that certain things are just "amusing banter" and also full of women who warn each other about not getting in a lift with the "amusing banter" types, or leaving an intern alone with them. Men often don't get that "amusing banter" is, to the women involved, often not amusing, and not seen as banter. You seem to be one of these men.

[DJBaggySmalls]

Do you have a set, practised response to give when it happens? What if it were racial abuse, or a threat of violence?
If your dept have a policy on harassment and aggression towards staff, you can assume it includes sexual harassment. You need a 'cease and desist' warning, and back up from your colleague.

[Mittens1969]

I’ve just seen your update, OP, that’s so gross. It’s also misuse of the emergency services.

The suggestion to record everything is surely a possibility? At the very least you would have a record of it so it’s not just your word against theirs. It’s very sad if this has to happen, of course, but it is about safety at work. It would be a deterrent too.

[Seenthelightnow]

Our conflict resolution was taught by the man who made the ‘wedding ring’ comment above. Enough said really, they go on about what is a reasonable and proportionate response more than anything.
Most of these incidents happen when we’re working alone. When we have a crewmate it’s nipped in the bud pretty sharply.

[whiskyowl]

The thing about a "cease and desist" warning is that it's great if contact is going to be repeated, but if the problem is that you're going into situation after situation and you are dealing with sexual harrassment from loads and loads of different people, you're going to get that repeat, degrading contact - even if you then draw a line with each of them. That is still unacceptable - it's wearing, it shouldn't happen. Paramedics should be able to go into a situation and do their job - which, let's face it, is bloody heroic and involves encountering trauma on a regular basis - without having to encounter constant degrading treatment. It's awful, really. The only thing that I can see will stop it is an awareness-raising campaign so that men are really aware that advances are totally inappropriate (and the wider climate at the moment is helpful here), combined with some punitive action from employers who need to take this seriously not only as a welfare issue but as a legal one.

[WhatWouldGenghisDo]

How about getting together with female colleagues and keeping a log of all incidents occurring to everybody in the course of a month? Then present it to management as evidence that you are collectively having to work in an unreasonable environment under current procedures?

[twohandstwokids]

If it is non life threatening, and you are sexually abused, would you not be within your rights to just get up and walk out. I realize that this seems extreme, but surely you can’t get in trouble for that? It’s a very sad state of affairs if you did.

[rollingonariver]

@ShatnersWig I agree with some of what you’re saying. I’d like to say though that a lot of women are scared of men when they touch them inappropriately. I feel you could say to a woman ‘please stop that’ and she’d probably comply whereas the men that do this scare women as they threaten to physically attack them.
It’s about power, you have to stay in your lane as a woman because a man can do whatever they like to you. (Obviously this isn’t all men)
Also, I wouldn’t consider that text banter in honesty. Receiving that kind of message from an older man ESPECIALLY one you’ve known for years as a family friend is disgusting. You trust him not to act in that way, it’s really nasty and clearly made her uncomfortable. As I said, women have to stay in their lane and not complain don’t we

[Kr1st1na]

Shatners Wig - this thread is about sexual assault and harrassmenmt of ambulance crew and other health care / emergency staff. And yet you have posted three times In detail about Damian Green, which isn’t remotely relevant here, as it was nothing to do with the ambulance service.

Why are you trying to derail the Ops thread? It’s not about you and your views on Damian Green. And it’s also not about your own experiences of sexual harassment, unless you are in a similar job to the OP.

[Seenthelightnow]

You are technically within your rights until they tack ‘and I’ve got chest pain ‘on the end. You have a duty of care and most of us ( there are some bad eggs obviously) go into the profession to help. It goes through your mind that just because they’re disgusting doesn’t mean they aren’t ill so I’ll do my job regardless. 99% of the time the only thing wrong with them is their attitude but you never know.
I think education is the answer and making it socially unacceptable. After all I’ve managed, and so have thousands of others, to bring up boys who regard unwanted sexual advances as deeply repugnant as they do racial abuse, so it is possible.
I do think equality scares many men as they feel control slipping away and that partially explains, but does not excuse, the increase in this behaviour.

[Inig0M0nt0ya]

I have a friend who is a paramedic so I had an idea of this sort of thing going on, but it's still shocking.
You're right, education is needed, but too often in secondary schools harassing behaviours are dismissed as boys will be boys, so compounds the issue.

Shatners, youre doing a fine job of derailing from the issue, dismissing how widespread this issue is and mansplaining. To me this makes you part of the problem.

[Pumperthepumper]

Rather than being opposed to each other (trivial sexual harassment v serious rape) the two are on a continuum (sexual harassment---> rape). It's only by taking BOTH seriously that we will give women the dignity and power and institutional and legal support that they need to end this pervasive problem.

Absolutely Whisky, and Trafalgar.

[cremedelashite]

Omg op. That’s absolutely awful. I had no idea you guys had to deal with that shit but I 100% believe you. Your professional org needs a strategy. If head cams are unacceptable then audio recordings might work? They need to be trialling approaches to tackling this and communicating to your profession where they are in devising a strategy. Flags on certain chi numbers as well. Recordings and warnings on 111 number about verbal and physical abuse.

Thanks for putting yourself on the line for everyone.

[rollingonariver]

Gosh there should really be a charge if you call an ambulance you don’t need. Especially if you do so just be be abusive to staff.

[Pumperthepumper]

Sorry, posted too soon. I don't know what the answer is to having to deal with this day-to-day horribleness but I think it's really important to look at the wider picture in order to make behaviour like this absolutely, unquestionably wrong. And so when a woman says 'I don't like that' that's enough to make it an issue, instead of a wall of 'not all men' or 'my husband is nice' or 'doesn't sound that bad to me'.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

I lead a sheltered life and have never watched any porn, so this may be nonsense, but could the massive increase in porn availability have something to do with this? Men who spend hours and hours every week watching women being treated with a total lack of respect and often seeming to like it must surely come to see this as normal behaviour.

This occurred to me when you said it's got worse recently and lots of young men are behaving like this.

[WhatWouldGenghisDo]

Combination of male backlash and bad habits learnt from porn sounds pretty convincing to me

HCPs get this kind of thing a lot. Ime a certain type of man sees receiving health care from a woman as equivalent to being 'serviced' and as proving that they are in a position of power over that HCP. I expect there's plenty of porn out there reinforcing these kinds of associations.

[ShatnersWig]

Archery and Kr1st1na and Inig0 Not at all. As you will have read, I know plenty of women who send emails like Green's to men and I have had my backside pinched and hands placed on my leg/knee by women. Those women would regard their behaviour as banter. I work in the theatre and some of the things I see quite astonish me on BOTH sides. I think I have made it clear on the specific situation the OP mentions in most of my posts that it is not acceptable, and that clearly there should be a zero tolerance but that cameras could perhaps be used by all the emergency services, including ambulance workers, and that there could be ways to ensure that genuine out of character behaviour due to illness is assessed differently to other abusive behaviour. I have also said that of course it is much, much more prevalent from men towards women. I have not said otherwise.

I apologise if it felt I was derailing the thread, which was not my intention, I was responding not just to the specific situation of the OP’s, together with her wider question (“why is it that men, mainly in the 20-50 age range seem to think it’s amusing to make women feel uncomfortable…”), and the OPs headline which could also be about the current climate in Westminster, Hollywood etc.

I shall bow out, as it was never my intention to derail.

[Trafalgarxxx]

Gasp0 actually I can across an article this am saying exactely that.
That the prevalence of Leon has induced a lot of very negative attitude towards women.
I can believe that. In particular, this will make behaviours such as groping etc.. look tame and acceptable. Same with calling women name. Or not expecting them to be happy to have sex with anyone.

I think one issue is that a lot of those films are done with the idea that this is what normal people do (see first time xxx or so called home made videos) so people —men— ‘forget’ these are films and no more realistic than an James Bond or Mission Impossible. It’s crazy.

[Seenthelightnow]

Interesting article I found today about why women don't report and when they do, don't get believed.
New Yorker