To not know what to do about inappropriate sexual behaviour.

[Seenthelightnow]

I did post this in Chat last night but it's slipped off the first page and I am keen to get some responses so apologies for duplicate post.
I’m a paramedic, often working on my own obviously going into peoples homes. Virtually every week I experience some sort of sexually motivated behaviour. It ranges from the ‘ do you fancy a fuck.’ ‘would you like to hold my willy while I have a piss’ to physical grabbing and touching. That’s not even counting the elderly patients with dementia.
It happens to us all and we just extract ourselves from the situation and laugh it off but it frequently makes us feel uncomfortable and sometimes unsafe.

It wasn’t until recently when I saw a young, gay, male crewmate being propositioned by an elderly ( not dementia) patient in the most sexually explicit way, and how upset it made him feel, that I realised how much we normalise almost constant sexual harassment and assault when directed at women. Talking to my gay colleagues the above seems to be much less common.

Why is it that men, mainly in the 20-50 age range seem to think it’s amusing to make women feel uncomfortable and unsafe when we’re simply doing our job and is there anything we can do to prevent it or to feel safer?

Btw I have nc’d for this but have been around since 2007.

[whiskyowl]

I'm shocked and appalled that you are experiencing harassment at this scale from members of the public. It's a culture of male entitlement, really, that says any woman is "fair game". It's completely unacceptable, and I like to think that the current fuss about similar cases is the start of a turning point in the way these cases are viewed.

I wonder if there is a way for you to organise with other women in your profession - perhaps via the union - and start a campaign against sexual harassment. Awareness raising does achieve things, albeit is slowly and incrementally.

And Damien Green isn't in trouble for "almost touching" someone, but for actually touching them, for sending a suggestive text to them, and then following it up with an email. He's also in the dossier as "handsey at parties".

[Seenthelightnow]

The trouble with cameras is patients privacy, treatment often means exposing and if we didn't record for everyone then we would be accused of discriminating.

[Seenthelightnow]

I'm hoping that the current climate is changing, it certainly needs to!
TBH I have never experienced the level of abuse that I have encountered in the last 3 or 4 years before, not even when I was working in the city in the 80s/90s.

[MerryMarigold]

It's definitely got worse in the last 10 years and I feel increasingly saddened by it.

That does need to be addressed. Is there a professional body for paramedics than can campaign about this and come up with some ideas of how to tackle it. If it is getting worse at an increasing rate it is going to cause an even greater shortage of paramedics.

[Ollivander84]

They focused on it a fair bit in the last Ambulance programme

[MerryMarigold]

Ollivander, were there strategies to make a difference?

[ArcheryAnnie]

If challenged they bring out the 'it's only a joke, I was just being friendly' or 'you should be pleased someone wants to fuck you as you're old and ugly'

This. There is no possible response from women that the perps would deem acceptable.

(I remember when I was quite young, being SO DELIGHTED by an older friend's response to being told she was a "humourless feminist" when she would not put up with this sort of thing. Her response "yup! No sense of humour at all, none. Now fuck off." The idea that you didn't have to be defensive about not having a "sense of humour" about these things was an absolute revelation to me.)

[LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726]

That's disgraceful, Seen, really it is. How dare they? I think what Manc says is right; there's just a general lack of respect.

Something does need to be done about it and maybe that would be along the lines of the "violence will not be tolerated" policy that's in every surgery, every reception, everywhere. Something for the paramedic staff that is a clear and firm mandate that patients either be respectful and not harass the responder or the paramedic will leave.

It sounds horrendous. I don't know what can be done in practice but nobody should have to put up with this. The patients that do this are a bit stupid because they're traceable and reports can be made about them and all it will do is hamper their care and attendance in future. Idiots.

[senzaparole03]

Sexual assault across the spectrum is about power, control and dominance. People reminding us that they are in charge, that we can pretend we are in control of our lives but we're not. They're here to remind us of that. To fear them. To subjugate to them.

[Seenthelightnow]

i do think programmes like that help although patients have to consent after the event and I would guess the worst offenders don't, plus management have a vested interest in making things look good.

I am going to use my time with students to highlight the issue and to encourage reporting. Making it less of a thing we accept has got to help, or at least make women feel they are not alone.
I'm on a car for the next 5 shifts, I'm going to make notes of each episode and see how many there are, mixture of nights and days so will be interesting.

[ShatnersWig]

whisky In terms of the Kate Maltby/Damian Green business, I don't see it at all as cut and dried as that. She has chosen to write an article about it, not report it. In the article she states "felt a fleeting hand against my knee — so brief, it was almost deniable". That 'could' be perfectly accidental, it's not even in the same league as Michael Fallon's very definite knee touch on Julia H-B. His email about the corset and meeting up for a drink would for many people be nothing but banter between two people who've known each other for years, which they have, and she continued to have email exchanges with him following that email.

I am not for one minute saying there may not be more to come, but on the basis of her article alone, the jury is out for me, and I have read other female journalists and columnists treating it similarly.

[pallasathena]

If sexual harassment and sexual assault were reframed as hate crimes, which essentially, is what they are...there would be a shift in perception and behaviour.
Reframe the narrative by changing the vocabulary. Social engineering that's been proven to work.

[Witsender]

In this scenario you are in control and they need you. They don't like this, so they try to bring you back down a peg or two.

Not at all surprised by the first few posts pointing out women do it too.

[Mittens1969]

I do remember how much of this there was going on when I was single and travelling a lot on public transport, and when I was studying. As an example, I had one student proposition me and when I said no, he used the racism card.

Travelling by plane, I once had a man constantly trying to touch me up.

But for paramedics to go through this is completely awful, I personally don’t see why you shouldn’t involve the police.

[Seenthelightnow]

I think we would involve the police more if there was a few more of them! Trust me there's not enough to deal with the life threatening jobs in a timely manner, they get as frustrated as we do at their limitations.

Female police officers get so much sexual abuse and are expected to put up with it. The only, very small, point in their favour is a stab vest. baton and more self defence training but I am constantly appalled at the abuse they get.

[Bunnyfuller]

Lots of police services are issued with BWV (body worn cameras) and it is a fabulous evidential tool. This would definitely assist in any official complaint to the police as otherwise it is your word against the suspect, and as much as we know they're guilty, CPS will be unlikely to support a charge without some firm evidence. It's frustrating in many sexual assault cases, because obviously there's rare any camera evidence of it being non-consensual, again CPS decision says 'not in the public interest to pursue' which means 'we're not using resource on something we'll probably lose at court'.

The other useful element of BWV is complaints of police 'brutality' are very easily proved or disproved. Such malicious complaints have dropped since the offenders know they're filmed from the moment the cop gets out of the car. It's also useful capturing 'the vibe' in DA shouts when the victim tries to retract when we get there.

[Mittens1969]

, OP. I can well believe it’s the same for female police officers, sadly.

I agree that we normalise it. When I had to cope with behaviour like that as a younger woman (it’s much easier now I have a car!), I didn’t realise just how unacceptable it was. Probably because of being an SA survivor.

At least it’s being acknowledged now in a way it wasn’t before.

[juststuff]

Wow that's awful. The irony - when you're there to help!

Can you bring it up with your professional org?

Blog about it?

So tired of this shit. I told DH about all the workplace / school place harassment and intimidation that I've received over the years and he was pretty shocked.

The UK NEEDS a culture change.

[kateandme]

nick Ferrari was on this morning.he has a campaing going on this very thing.a paramedic came on too.it was more aimed at violence ithink in the interview.might be worth looking him or the campaign up.it was only very recently.so its not something people are forgetting or think is ok.
is there something(I don't no how ur base works) where certain households.or patients could have a key codes of flags next to them.so if a member of your team have had trouble sexually or violently with a household or patient in the pass straight away the base ill no when thye call it through so your forwarned.
but then this would have to be in the extreme I think because there are really nice kind ok people who do unjust and act totally out of character when unwell.so having a flag next to their name automatically put them at a disadvantage perhaps in treatment.
oh I don't no.
I'm sorry it happens to you though.
I also don't want you to think also that some behaviours are normal.paramedics are often going to people at their worst eb.you might see the very same person when they aren't in that epidsode and a well them is totally different.
obviously not the idiots who are beig sexually horrific and not ill.

[whiskyowl]

shatners - from what I gather from the Westminster rumour-mill, Kate Maltby is the tip of the iceberg, just as the Fallon thing is about far more than one incident. It was a suggestive text, btw, that said "Long time no see. But having admired you in a corset in my favourite tabloid I feel impelled to ask if you are free for a drink anytime?" There is an inference there that isn't appropriate in any request for a meeting.

[ShatnersWig]

I totally agree that body cameras for all emergency services not just the police may well be a very good move. In terms of normal people behaving out of character when ill is a fair point, but I think the cameras could help with that, because it would become clear if that were the case - you could easily adopt a policy where a first experience could be reported and potentially assessed (ie, is their condition of the type that can result in such altered behaviour) and a sort of yellow card placed on file. Only if a repeat experience was found would something more serious come into play.

[Branleuse]

this is awful. I remember when i was doing nurse training being propositioned a few times or asked by male patients to give them intimate washes when there was no need and i had no confidence or not enough frame of reference to know what i should be doing and what i was definitely not expected to do. It was one of the reasons I gave up in the end as sometimes I would feel really violated and not strong enough to brush it off or stand up for myself

[thetemptationofchocolate]

I get why a camera is not a good thing when treating a patient. But if you had some way of recording sound only it might help, if only to raise awareness with your management as to how frequent this kind of abuse is.

[ShatnersWig]

whisky As I say, if more comes out, throw the book at them. But I do feel there is a difference between, say, Damian Green MP sending that to a journalist he'd never met, or only met once, or to someone who works for him, to sending it to someone whom he has known for years and years, has socialised with many times both in group and in one-to-one situations (in other pubs, which even Maltby has stated). I know plenty of men and women who would send what some people would feel were suggestive or flirty texts to people they know without it being taken as anything more than amusing banter. Totally agree out of place in a work context. But it wasn't work. The fact that Maltby (who claimed to have avoided him for a year after the barely and possibly accidental knee glance - even she admitted wasn't a touch or a hand placed on her knee) then replied and continued perfectly normal email and texts with Green seems odd for someone who didn't need to be in touch with him if she didn't want.

If more comes out, absolutely, but based SOLELY on Maltby, I just can't hang him out to dry YET.

[Trafalgarxxx]

There is a lot to say about the fact that a lot of people, men and women, often think that these assaults are notbthat serious.
Ive Just had a conversation with DH about it this am as we were talking about our defnse minister leaving for inappropriate conduct. He thought this was such as a small issue that it was distracting form ‘proper’ cases such as rape and therefore should be forgotten about. And that the fact it was at the top of the agenda now was just as ign that somwth8ng else needed to be hidden (more ‘serious’ abuse from him, other political,issues etc).
This might be right BUT seeing sexual assault as someth8ng not too serious is very worrying.

I think as women we thought we had reached equality and we have let our guards down. We are getting the backlash from that, as very clearly men, as the people with the most to loose, are not going to let it happen wo kicking a fuss.
Time to start reporting. To work, every single issue of inappropriate behaviour. To the police. They might well be swamp under but at least, it will be recorded and can’t be ignored anymore. On social media etc...

Someone was saying that men are quite good at that. They know they can do a lot of things nowdays but a lot is still seen as acceptable (inevitable) or much harder to stop (eg banter.... aka sexual harassement).
That doesn’t mean it should be accepted and not raised.