To think this is an elite school system via the back door.

[1DAD2KIDS]

There is a very good state school in my city. It has great facilities, staff and excellent (plus ever improving) results. It is a school that would give any private sector school a run for its money.

As a result a strange thing has happened over the last 10 years. It was once in a pretty average area with house prices reflecting the rest of the city. But now it is within in a bubble of masivly inflated house prices and rents within its catchment area. The difference in prices between a house that is in the catchment area and one just outside it is staggering. When a house in the catchment area is on the market it's always advertised in BOLD print in the catchment area of said school. These houses fly off the market.

It's clear what is going on here. As the middle classes have been priced out of the private sector they have found a new more affordable way to set up an elite school system. Afterall when you think about it in the long run its a far more ecconomical way to get your kids in a great school without paying private sector prices and once the kids have grown up you could sell the house on again and get the money back (or more). The demographic in the school has masivly changed over the last 10 years. Now the kids are pretty much all from well off, well educated backgrounds. It is no secret that part of the schools improving high achievement is due to change in student demographic. Also the school is not short of generous parents who donate or raise extra funds for the school. The only way to get into the school as it's soon popular is to live in the catchment area. The only way you can afford to live in that area and thus attend the school is by being well off. Even pretty much all the council housing in the area has gone through right to buy and now sells/rents at ridiculous prices.

What has happened in this case is clear. It is an elite school were you can only go to if you can afford the very expensive catchment area. A school for the well off funded by the state. There is nothing technically wrong but is there something morally wrong? Is it in the spirit of the state school system to have an excellent state school were only those wealthy enough can attend due to catchment area? Or is it just another obstical to social mobility?

[Turbinaria]

This is the reality of parental choice as parents on the whole will chose to educate their children with others whose families have similar educational outlook.

Before parental choice, schools had to take children from a range of primary schools so no one social economical or ethnic group dominated a year group. I went to such a school and lived in a relatively big city and the longest bus journey any child in my year group had to do to get to school was 30 minutes.

You had to go to the school allocated to you and very difficult to move schools. All of my primary school year group went to the same secondary school. I don't remember schools being as polarised in terms of being labelled good or bad as now and there was none of this application trauma

[unlimiteddilutingjuice]

karriecreamer That's what the "value added" measure is for.
Personally I would be happy to send my kids somewhere with poorer headline results but higher value added.
You get that score by teaching well, diferentiating, treating the kids as individuals. Stuff that can only benefit kids from any background.

[Spikeyball]

"Not all outstanding state schools stay outstanding. Your only ever one head away from inadequate."

Yes one school that has been good with outstanding features for years has just gone into special measures. There was a new head a couple of years ago and a lot of retirements and experienced staff moving on.

[Floralnomad]

bear I understand what you said but my point was that Cranbrook is apparently considerably better than the alternatives so if that's the best you can achieve without moving 100s of miles that's what you are going to try and do .

[InvisibleKittenAttack]

The problem is all alternative systems to judge who should get the places when there's more children than places are also flawed. Distance from the school seems realitively fair, it also works with environmental concerns and travel planning - if most children live close to the school, they can walk or only need to take short bus/car journeys.

[C8H10N4O2]

Also the school is not short of generous parents who donate or raise extra funds for the school.

This is also true for pretty much every grammar school in the country to the detriment of the local secondary moderns (or whatever euphemism is used to name them).

And yes, obviously everyone who chooses comp by definition lives in a wealthy bubble where the schools are magically different from 'real' comps.

[InvisibleKittenAttack]

It's not just fund raising from parents - DH went to a state super selective, he and all the 'old boys' regularly get requests for funding. the most recent was directly asking to be mentioned in 'old boys' wills !

Also the 'old boys' are asked to come in to give talks about their careers, are asked to help find work experience, to advertise jobs with the 'old boy' newsletter, particularly graduate training schemes for the more recent leavers (with the general assumption that those who went to the same school will be prioritised for interview).

The overall effect is to make big differences in the education and life chances of the boys who get to this state school over other state schools in the area.

[SarahJayne38]

I imagine it's been ever thus. We did exactly that, paid a £100k premium to buy a house in the catchment of the right primary school. I love the house and area so no regrets. But, in hindsight I don't think the school is that good, relying heavily on overly anxious parents spending fortunes on tutors . Competitive parenting is rife due to the middle class obsession with grammar schools and being in the top set. And the lack of variety of people is not an advantage in my view. They all end up at the same secondary school round here anyway!

[SarahJayne38]

@rsindropsandsparkles - I don't agree about wimbledon schools. RL is most definitely considered a good option now. As is Rutlish for boys. I have a child at one of these schools so feel my opinion is current. Granted they have both had their issues in the past.

Grammars are more devise in my opinion. It's a big scrum of pointy parental elbows. A few genuinely bright children go through, but the majority would have been intensely tutored.

[JonSnowsWife]

It's the case for several schools I'm afraid. DSs school is out of catchment, he's there as he has SENs. I'd never in a million years be able to afford a house within the catchment area. I think the cheapest we found was between £300,000 &£400,000 for a standard 2bed.

The irony of it is DSs school prides itself on accepting people from beyond the catchment area, so it's not actually necessary. There's another school within the catchment area that even the Cambridge's would struggle to get Prince George himself would struggle to get in so I'm sure that helps oil the wheels.

[JonSnowsWife]

Not all outstanding state schools stay outstanding. Your only ever one head away from inadequate."

I very much agree. The secondary school that was outstanding here. No one will send their worst enemy there now.

[1DAD2KIDS]

You wont find me being and over competitive parent when it comes to academic attainment. I want to concentrate on the education outside of school and qualities I learnt early that are not really the focus of an academic target based system. The education that I see as the source of my success. I was a keen boy scout then a Cadet when I was old enough. I got a great education, morals, self discipline and social responsibility out of adventurous activities. How many 14 year old are taking control of aircraft, responsibility for live weapons and ammunition, plan activities/routes/logistics/training programs, leading teams in difficult environments, fending for them self in harsh survival situations? I brought to the party independence, confidence, leadership, responsibility and the ability to cope with ambiguous situations to an employers table that most school leavers don't have regardless of grades. Most of the former cadets I know regardless of grade have done ok fro them self.

Also I always take OFSTED with a pinch of salt so would never pay thought the nose based on OFSTED. My girls school is not rated the best but it has done wonders with her. She is very happy and its a lovely warm and friendly school. They have gone the extra mile to work on her confidence and she is now a different child. I couldn't imagine her going to a different primary. I don't want my kids dragged down by the pressure of academic attainment. I couldn't care less what their grades are as long as they are happy and contributing positively to society. But I know if give them the skills that school doesn't really focus on they will be miles ahead of all the other faceless well achieving sausages who leave the sausage factory for employment regardless of grades.

[BertrandRussell]

Which is why, in My Glorious Reign, school admission will be by a system of combined fair banding and lottery.

i suspect I would blow the OP's mind if I explained about how faith is also a means of backdoor selection..........

[magpiemischeif]

So OP, regarding your last post, this is just not something to get het up about personally. You favour extra curricular activities and these will be much easier for her to do independently, with less travel, if the school runs or has links to local ones. Her friends are more likely to join her in these as well.

I agree with you, in that this is also a housing issue. However I think people have to be comfortable living amongst the people living in close vicinity to them. Whether they are rich or poor, young or old. Which is a wider issue than just schools. If there is an influx of 'new comers' this involves being welcoming as much as possible. Change to communities can keep them vibrant exciting at best, transient at worse. Lack of change can lead to them being 'tight knit' but also unwelcoming of 'new comers' and 'too intrusive'. There are flaws and benefits to both situations.

[magpiemischeif]

Which is why, in My Glorious Reign, school admission will be by a system of combined fair banding and lottery.

Would that involve lots of free school buses and out of hours transport for school run clubs Bertrand. If not therein also lies social inequality. Either way there will be more road congestion.

[mountford100]

Bertrand . Why do you want a school system that says to a family 'hey your child cant go to that school because school B has not enough high attainers '. Imagine the system drawing lots from a Tombola and then young Samantha having to be put back in the bowl , because she had been drawn out to attend school A.

In your system there would be no point schools having name just a number school '145' district Midlands . a Utopian and authoritarianism dream i think !

[Headofthehive55]

I certainly don't want a lottery.
I have four children and would find children at different school very difficult. They don't have the same holidays for a start!
I certainly want my children to have the independence to call on friends who live nearby. That would not happen if they went to different schools as they wouldn't know each other.

One of the reasons I live where I do, is that we moved and I wanted my child to go to their local school. And mix with local children.

[midnightmisssuki]

errrrr - quite normal OP - surely you're not just finding this out?!

[Heatherbell1978]

I'm in Scotland just outside Edinburgh. It's like that here too. There are a few very good state high schools in the city where most people couldn't afford to buy in the catchment area. Yes everyone goes to the catchment school (although you apply for an out of catchment place) but that has created bubbles around the good schools. We live outside the city where it's a bit less of a problem; there's only one local school for the town I live in so my kids either go there or private.

[rookiemere]

Generally parents want the best education they can get for their DCs and those with a bit of money will use that to get whatever advantage they can.

Grammars started out - imho - as a good idea. Both DH and his Dsis came from a very poor background without parents who were particularly equipped with supporting their educational ability. As they were both bright, they ended up in a grammar and have done well in their careers as a result.

But like all things those who have enough money have hijacked the system through intensive coaching.

DS goes private -we're lucky as my GPs pay - and yes like some others I'm a bit galled by those egalitarian parents who couldn't possibly send their DCs private, and feel free to criticise our decision - but somehow seem to live in "naice" catchment areas.

[SchnitzelVonKrumm]

In my area of London, one secondary became a destination school. House prices soared, catchment area shrank. Lots of middle-class-but-can't-afford-private-school families then couldn't get in, so they turned to the next school along, in slightly rougher area. It it turn became a destination school, same ramifications - gentrification and a squeeze out into a third, actually quite rough, area. The school there is now up and coming - it's a virtuous circle IME. Certainly has been for the council estate kids who were stuck with these school when they weren't very good but whose location now guarantees them places.

[Timeywimey8]

This is why I'm in favour of a lottery system for secondary schools

That creates even more school run mayhem though. I'd be annoyed if I lived 5 mins walk from a school and then had to drive, or pay for a bus pass for my dc to go 30 mins away. I also think lotteries are a result of the politics of envy - oh they live near a "good" school, that's not fair so lets mess it up for them.

In most countries kids go to their local school. I'm not sure why it has become such a huge issue here, maybe just because we have such a crazy housing market.

The Head also says that the school will not provide references for those who leave for private schools half way through

Is that legal? People might have all sorts of reasons to leave the area, and private school might be the only option if there's no state school place. I don't think a head should be making value judgments, it's like GPs who refuse to refer for private treatment.

[InvisibleKittenAttack]

School lottery system - most children not going to their local school, so rather than only say a quarter needing to get the bus or get in a car, the majority will do.

Also means if children are relying on a school bus, then unless they have a parent who can drive to pick them up, after school sports clubs aren't possible.

If they have friends in different towns, it makes social life and independence harder.

The lottery system basically is saying "we acknowledge some schools are significantly better than others, and most people want to send their kids to the best ones. so rather than looking at how we can make the schools more equal, we'll make it easier for those who don't live near by to get their kids in."

A lottery system is solving the wrong problem. Not looking at why some schools are better than others.

[1DAD2KIDS]

BertrandRussell I know what you mean about faith schools. I went to a C of E faith school that could select pupils from Christian denominations and a few of other faiths (no atheists). It was regarded on of the best schools in the city. Oddly enough I was one of the few working class kids at the school. Unfortunately a few years ago the school had the leadership of a very poor head mistress and the school went down hill fast. It was broke and OFSTED slated it, nearly went into special measures. Funny old thing all they middle class families that used to queue out the door to get into the school claiming it was the best place for their child on religious grounds disappeared too. Funny that? No doubt if the school becomes outstanding again there will be by some magic an appearance of 100s of middle class families who all of a sudden who feel the need to go to a school where their Christian values are number one consideration again.

SchnitzelVonKrumm Its funny how a school can have a massive effect on the gentrification and class cleansing of an area in such a short period of time.

[InvisibleKittenAttack]

Timeywimey - it's a problem here because there's a big variety in the quality of education in different schools, many councils just don't have enough school places at some age groups, let alone enough for people to pick and chose where they go.

We don't fund state education enough so the difference between a good school and a bad school can often come down to "can the parents raise enough money to properly fund the school as the state doesnt?". Poor areas, not happening. My DC's primary's PTA has managed to raise nearly £150k in the last 2 years.

It makes a huge difference to the experience of school.