To think this is an elite school system via the back door.

[1DAD2KIDS]

There is a very good state school in my city. It has great facilities, staff and excellent (plus ever improving) results. It is a school that would give any private sector school a run for its money.

As a result a strange thing has happened over the last 10 years. It was once in a pretty average area with house prices reflecting the rest of the city. But now it is within in a bubble of masivly inflated house prices and rents within its catchment area. The difference in prices between a house that is in the catchment area and one just outside it is staggering. When a house in the catchment area is on the market it's always advertised in BOLD print in the catchment area of said school. These houses fly off the market.

It's clear what is going on here. As the middle classes have been priced out of the private sector they have found a new more affordable way to set up an elite school system. Afterall when you think about it in the long run its a far more ecconomical way to get your kids in a great school without paying private sector prices and once the kids have grown up you could sell the house on again and get the money back (or more). The demographic in the school has masivly changed over the last 10 years. Now the kids are pretty much all from well off, well educated backgrounds. It is no secret that part of the schools improving high achievement is due to change in student demographic. Also the school is not short of generous parents who donate or raise extra funds for the school. The only way to get into the school as it's soon popular is to live in the catchment area. The only way you can afford to live in that area and thus attend the school is by being well off. Even pretty much all the council housing in the area has gone through right to buy and now sells/rents at ridiculous prices.

What has happened in this case is clear. It is an elite school were you can only go to if you can afford the very expensive catchment area. A school for the well off funded by the state. There is nothing technically wrong but is there something morally wrong? Is it in the spirit of the state school system to have an excellent state school were only those wealthy enough can attend due to catchment area? Or is it just another obstical to social mobility?

[magpiemischeif]

Community. Typo!

[RidingWindhorses]

Grammars have started to prioritise children on free school meals.

Over 30% of grammars have changed their admissions policy, including lowering the 11+ entry marks, in order to be more open and socially inclusive.

More than 50 grammars now give disadvantaged pupils priority over better off pupils with the aim that grammars should be “representative of their local communities".

[OneOfTheGrundys]

“Oh we don’t believe in paying for education, it’s so unethical creating that kind of a divide” says rich middle class white couple who buy a house inside a good school catchment area at 2x the cost of a non catchment school.
^
This.
Our friends exactly. Who are berating/mocking us for considering private ed for our DC. 🙄

[Tissunnyupnorth]

Been going on for years and is pretty much the norm where we live. However, I’m not sure what the answer is? A couple of schools in our area introduced a lottery system, but then you have the unfairness of watching a family from miles away get a place, whilst you live on the doorstep of the School, having lived there for many years and long before the School became popular (happened to close friend).

I would very interested to hear from Scottish mumsnetters. My understanding that the system in Scotland is very much, you just attend your local school. How does the Scottish system prevent the situation described by the OP developing?

[Acidophilus]

Our local secondary has this issue and is changing its admissions criteria to prioritise children who qualify for pupil premium grant (i.e. Free school meals, ex local authority care children etc). 25% of places will be reserved for them. Schools need pupil premium children as they attract much higher state funding per head and in the current climate of budget cuts that's vital.

[KingscoteStaff]

That's one of the reasons Kingsdale changed to a Lottery system.

But what do we want? Every child with an opportunity to go to their local school - build local networks of friends, walk or bike to school, opportunities for after school activities without half the kids missing out due to catching the bus,

Or

Every school should have the same mixture of affluence and ability, which would necessitate children being bussed across town every morning and afternoon to create the perfect mixture.

[Acidophilus]

I think prioritising pupil premium admissions for a certain percentage of places is better than a lottery which totally cuts the local ties.

[Marvellingmedicine]

Been happening for years here too. We live in Cheshire and certain schools have also introduced very expensive uniform with logo down the the socks and pe kits that cost £150. Nice way to keep the riff raff out.

[RidingWindhorses]

We did this. Invested the £250k we would have spent on school fees in property by an outstanding secondary. The school is excellent but it does serve the whole town and therefore a mix of people. We're very happy with that

The problem with this though is that it pushes people out of good schools who actually can't afford to pay. There's an argument that if you've got 250 grand to blow on education, then pay for it directly and let a place in a good secondary go to someone who can't afford to pay.

[blueyacht]

I live very close to an excellent state school. I couldn't give a shit as I don't have kids and never will. I just like the area.

[Acidophilus]

@ridingwindhorses - having £250k to invest in a house which will likely keep its value and and you can sell on is v v different to have 250k to spend on school fees.

@marvellingmedicine - I bet those schools have a system of uniform assistance for pupils on free school meals. It's the rung above the poorest which suffer, assistance is available usually if you are on benefits but not if you are just above that threshold

[2014newme]

@Ridingwindhorses nobody is pushed out as every child in our town goes to the same secondary.
There's no argument that says if you can afford private education you should take it. That's ridiculous! I'd rather take the excellent free education I get as a tax payer.

[Medwaymumoffour]

Not all outstanding state schools stay outstanding. Your only ever one head away from inadequate.
I live in a extremely expensive part of the uk. Even then it's cheaper to go to prep than move.
State classes have 30 kids in. Prep has max 12-15 and if I had the cash I'd choose prep overmoving every time. Because of class size. You will never ever get that in a oversubscribed outstanding state school.
Just my opinion

[Camomila]

Yup to travelling, I see lots of girls getting off the tram in Croydon in Ursuline uniforms.

And I think lots of boys get the bus the other way to Sutton for the grammar school.

(it’s part of the reason we want to move, none of the boy state options in Croydon seem that great)

[CecilyP]

@marvellingmedicine - I bet those schools have a system of uniform assistance for pupils on free school meals. It's the rung above the poorest which suffer, assistance is available usually if you are on benefits but not if you are just above that threshold

It is usually the LA that offers the assistance and it does go to those above FSM level. However,it is generally not a lot of money and wouldn't cover the cost of a blazer for some schools!

[1DAD2KIDS]

This is a very difficult question. One that is hard to or maybe impossible to address and be fair to all. That's partly why it fascinates me.

Maybe be part of the answer lays not with the school entrance policy but with government housing policy. Althogh I am genrally sceptical of large social engineering what if more could be done to ensure a wider social/class mix in all areas? Like I said most of the former social housing around the school has been sold off and not replaced. Maybe one way of starting to address the imbalances is a protected number of social and/or capped housing in each area?

[Acidophilus]

If it's an LA school that's true. Ours is an academy and so provides the assistance itself but only to pupil premium kids (pp is wider than free school meals).

[Acidophilus]

Sorry, the above was to @cecilyp

[karriecreamer]

It's wrong that the wealthy are able to monopolise good schools by buying expensive houses,

It's chicken and egg though isn't it? To what extent is the school and it's teachers creating the "good" school. Is it because the teachers are good that it creates the demand for places, or is it the type of kids who go there that make it a good school, i.e. parents who are more engaged with education themselves are likely to be wealthier.

[unlimiteddilutingjuice]

I'm in Scotland Tissunny and moved here from London so am in a position to compare.
The general rule is that you go to the local school. In Glasgow you might choose a Catholic school but generally only if you are actually Catholic (or Muslim if you take the view of better another Abrahamic religion than no religion at all!)
You have to register with the catchment school first and then put in a placing request. Because school places are in relatively good supply and relatively few people put in placing requests you have a good chance of getting your preferred school if you ask. There is one school I can think of where this is not the case coughJordanhillcough
There is a bit of chat from the middle class mums about the "best schools" and a bit of sharp elbowed behaviour. But because there is good funding and (for now) no published league tables this behaviour does not have the effect of destroying the system for everyone else.
If you want to be super sharp elbowed there's the Gaelic school which I have heard described as "like private school but for free". Some years there is a bit of controversy about catchments and who has/hasn't got in and does/doesn't deserve to be there.
But the authorities have responded by expanding provision. This year there are 4 P1 classes of 27 kids and noone was turned away! My guess is that over time the educational experience will become less elitist even there as attendance broadens.
I think there is a plan to introduce league tables here and it troubles me because I think they were a big mistake in England.

[Viviennemary]

I see why you think this. A great number of things push house prices up. And flavour of this year might in a few years be overtaken by somewhere else. As all the sheep rush to follow.

[Headofthehive55]

I don't think a social mix actually works as you think it might.
I live in a mixed area. Even our football (out of school) teams are split coincidentally on class lines. We find that parents tend to congregate with other like minded parents. And offer lift shares to friends. Children tend to associate with those similar in class / income.

I think you will find the school itself has little to do with the achievement - it's more the parents ability to help their children at home which matters.

[Oldie2017]

I am from the NE originally and in parts it can be like Scotland and any area of the country with basically one school in each place and lots of space and land and long distances (much of Scotland and Northumberland and rural Wales). If there is one state schools everyone goes there. In cities the position has always been more complicated as there are more pupils and more schools and more different kinds of schools. (My parents paid for private schools for us from age 5 despite going to and doing very well at state grammars themselves - they were both very clever and were probably in area where just about everyone at the local state grammars came from poor homes as they were pretty deprived regions).

Grammar schools were abolished in the NE of England in about 1970. So there is quite a regional difference across the UK which has always felt very unfair to me. Why should one group of UK children get one kind of education and another set because they live in XYZ don't within the state system?

I just eflt it was easier (and possibly cheaper) in the SE to pay school fees. Paid my last lot last summer when the twins had their last term. It was worth it and means you aren't fussing about where you live, just whether they will pass the exam to get in.

[astoundedgoat]

In our old city we worked out that it was cheaper to pay for private than to move into the catchment for the amazing secondary.

[SleepFreeZone]

Ehem Harpenden anyone?