To think that "well she's only 13" is not an excuse for child to not understanding basic legal issues?

[MrsExpo]

Prepared to be flamed for this, but as a none parent I'm struggling to understand why an intelligent, well educated 13 year old would not be able to understand a couple of basics about what is, and is not, legal. To give some background ...

Issue 1 ... this girl owns a horse and has recently discovered a broken fence off a nearby bridle path, which allows access to a private farm area with nice grass tracks, perfect for riding on. This is private property, not public right of way, and the owners do not take kindly to people trespassing on it. They own their own horses and keep the area for their own use. Fair enough. But she can't understand the basic premise of trespassing, and private property being private, and thus that her going there is not great and could get her into some significant bother.......

Issue 2 ... (perhaps a bit more complex) ... she regularly copies and shares copyright images from different web sites on her FB and Twitter feeds, even if they have the photographer's copyright plastered all over them. She cannot understand that pictures actually belong to someone in the same way as other property, and she should therefore not steal them for her own use, even if they are on a web site somewhere, and are thus accessible.

I think she's old enough and bright enough to understand right from wrong in these situations. As I said, not a mother of teenage girls myself, so I might be way off beam here. AIBU?

[PyongyangKipperbang]

To me the issue about the photos would be "Is it costing me money?"

And it isnt. SHe wouldnt pay for the image if she couldnt C&P it, she isnt selling it and no one else can because it is watermarked.

The field owners could argue that the extra use of the field leads to more upkeep and therefore cost.

[bananacake1]

PyongyangKipperbang - you wouldn't say that if you spent money taking and publishing photos but someone comes along and just helps themselves to it.
The Millenium Copyright Act is your friend when it comes to stopping people stealing your images. I've had to threaten use of it a couple of times (although never against a child) and it works a treat as soon as people understand what the consequences will be for them.

[Treasures]

WannaBe Wed 26-Apr-17 13:54:23
"These things are in the public domain, and everyone copies them, in the same way most people have downloaded music or films etc at some point."

You're misunderstanding the term 'public domain'. It doesn't mean 'on the internet and publicly accessible'. It means 'no longer subject to copyright or other legal restrictions'. In the UK, copyright ends 70 years after the copyright holder's death. Use of the photo without permission before that term expires is copyright infringement.

Yes a lot of people do it anyway. I think sometimes it's OK - like a meme that's designed to be shared. But definitely not with personal photos or commercial designs.
Someone wrote a book once, sold it on Amazon where it did alright in terms of sales. The first photo used in the book was taken by me, owned by me and had my face and my watermark on it. He didn't ask permission to use it. Amazon sided with me and removed the book from sale because he infringed my copyright. (And how fucking dare he use my face, I was raging). The photo had been stolen from my website. It being on my website does not make it 'public domain'.

[GwenStaceyRocks]

But copyright law is complicated and although the OP says they have explained their interpretation of copyright law, the girl could be hearing different versions from different people. As a PP said, I work in marketing and with small businesses, creative commons licenses and attribution links, etc, mean lots of adults are confused about copyright law. I wouldn't expect a teen to understand it.
tbh it sounds (on both issues) as though the girl has argued herself into a corner and is maintaining her position in spite of any discussions to the contrary. That's quite standard for teens.

[elkegel]

If you are sharing a photo on social media with the photographer's watermark on, you are giving them free publicity for their work. They have not suffered a loss, unless you have used the photo in a manner which might be detrimental to their business.

[kali110]

The photo thing, meh probably at that age wouldn't really understand but the trespassing thing yes she is old enough!
By the sounds of it is simply a cheeky so and so!
No at that age i certainly would not have trespassed on someone's property ( esecially After i'd been told about it).
Do her parents not really care?

[frostyfingers]

It is costing money though - photographs are taken to be sold and by using it without paying she is taking away that income. If she wants the photos then she should pay. If she's been told not to go onto someone else's property then she should not be going there.

I'd be pretty cross if I were you and the landowner OP, not sure how you deal with that sort of attitude though.

[DoJo]

She understands, she just doesn't care - there's a difference and if you think you're going to persuade a teen that something they are doing is inherently wrong by quoting legal statute you may be waiting a long time for an admission of wrongdoing...

[Nanny0gg]

But copyright law is complicated and although the OP says they have explained their interpretation of copyright law, the girl could be hearing different versions from different people.

But as the photos belong to the OP it is theft and she only needs to understand that. Doesn't matter what anyone else says.

[PyongyangKipperbang]

photographs are taken to be sold and by using it without paying she is taking away that income

I disagree.

The person sharing it would not otherwise pay would they? A 13 year old is not going to approach the OP to ask how much to buy the picture. It isnt finite either, the OP can reproduce this photo as often as she wants, it isnt like stealing something from a shop where once its gone, its gone. And again, its watermarked, its not something that anyone else can sell either. It isnt costing anyone anything. I can see the annoyance factor but I think you would be hard pushed to put a number on any financial loss if it were ever to go to court.

[OnionKnight]

Even adults struggle with copyright laws, a thirteen year old has no chance.

[limitedperiodonly]

Am i the only one that used to venture off the beaten track to explore private fields, forests, building sites, the school roof then?

Me too MelinaMercury. My friend and I used to cut aross a golf course on the way home from school. The golfers used to shout a lot and sometimes complain to the school. But because they were unable to identify us, we carried on. No such thing as camera phones then.

[Ber2291]

Can someone clarify the big hoo ha about photos? I just do not get it at all.

Absolutely makes perfect sense if you are using for commercial gain. But putting a photo someone else took on your Facebook page? What's the big deal about that? Presumably it wasn't in the context of posting let's say a photographers work and outright lying saying 'look at this beautiful photo of a sunset that I personally took'???

[Ladyformation]

I was a horsey 13 year old and yes, I understood not to ride on other people's land without permission. There are always some fields which are not technically public but which are understood in the community to be fine to ride round - but this isn't one of them, she's been told and if she's responsible enough to hack out alone (which is totally fine at 13 IMO) then she's responsible enough to get off other people's private property.

The photo thing is different I think, if she's just using the watermarked version.

[forlornalien]

The trespassing thing is different but I'd expect the landowners to make their property secure.

Really?

The rape thing is different but I'd expect the woman not to walk down the street at night dressed in revealing clothes.

It's not different at all; it's illegal and you shouldn't trespass just because there isn't a fence.

[limitedperiodonly]

Imagine you went into a shop and took a picture from there to hang on your wall because it was beautiful. That would be stealing. Same thing with someone's photo, particularly if they are a professional photographer and that's how they earn their living.

But as other posters have said, if adults don't understand that, then not much hope for 13 year olds

[lizzyj4]

The photo issue - I'm not really sure why you're sticking your neb in, unless you are a parental figure to her or they are your photos? 'Copyright infringement' is very common, most images are not watermarked, and as others have said, there is a fairly confusing array of creative commons licences that allow many images to be used in some way. Unless she is profiting financially from the images, I'm not sure why you're making such a fuss.

And as someone who works online and has had a lot of my creative work 'borrowed' over the years, I'd say if these are your images, a 13-year-old sharing them is the least of your problems. If you're that worried abut copyright infringement, don't put your stuff online or only put out a selection of images, that you don't mind being shared. Personally, I wouldn't mind a child sharing anything I create - rather more pissed off when it's an adult who profits financially.

FWIW I think photographers who heavily watermark all their stuff (and usually include legal threats on their website) are going about it in completely the wrong way. It totally puts me off and I click away from the website immediately (and I employ photographers quite often). Other photographers, who allow sharing on social media without this restriction (and see it as the amazing free marketing it is) have got it right IMO. If images are low-res, they will work fine on-screen but look crap when printed off, so they will still need to come to you to buy printed images. But that's another thread...

[SilverBirchWithout]

Unfortunately, her attitude is not particularly unusual, even for many adults. How many times to you hear people justifying petty crime such as finding a £20 and keeping it, because people 'should be more careful' or speeding excessively because there are no speed cameras and they are a 'good driver', or claiming more expenses from work than they are entitled.

I'm not even sure it's about the legality of the situations either. It's more about morality or respecting the rights of others.
She is saying she can (nothing is preventing her), so she will (unless stopped).
At her age a more normal response would be 'well, it's not hurting anyone'. However, If this was a very regular occurrence, and there were other factors as well, it could be indicative of a personality disorder.

[GloriousGoosebumps]

I think the worst thing about trespassers is that when they are injured, and in this particular case it would only take her horse being startled and throwing her, they are quick to look for compensation for breach the landowner's duty of care. She's clearly been told and told that she is not to trespass on the land and has chosen to disobey. You say her parents have spoken to her but they sound quite ineffective. They need to start parenting.

[HmmOkay]

The horse thing you could explain that her that she is endangering the horse as well as herself by going into the yard.

The farm dogs could be out and start barking and circling the horse. A lot of horses would not react well to that and then you have the danger of the horse bolting.

When she is on the horse, she has the responsibility to look out for the horse as well as herself. I'd expect a 13 year old to understand that and, if they can't or won't understand that, I'd suggest that they should not be riding unsupervised. And leave that thought with her.

[Redglitter]

Doesn't the photo issue depend on the photographer. I have 2 professional photographer friends who post some of their work on FB. It all has their watermark on it and they state clearly you may copy or share the photos but they must be posted as the originals are. No cropping or removing their details otherwise neither bothers

[notusualmnname]

As a previous horsey teenager the lure of a good gallop track would have shorted out any understandings I had about trespass and law. In fact I remember a bunch of us from the yard getting told off by a landowner for something v similar (there were fallen trees in a field to jump, we were ecstatic at the find!). However once we were spoken to by the landowner we apologised and didn't go back again.
I am assuming the photos are horse comps/fun rides. Have also seen them shared copyright all over soc. media. Unfortunately it is like illegal downloads, theft that has become somewhat normalised. Not okay, but again, not easy for a 13 yr old.

[Whatslovegottodo]

The suggestion these things may be symptoms of a personality disorder in the girl are one of the most and I've read on Mumsnet and have been here a few years!

[ClarkWGriswold]

I didn't understand properly about Intellectual property and copyright until I started University at 18 and had it (and plagiarism) explained to me.

[CheesyCrust]

@forlornalien (Wed 26-Apr-17 15:10:02)

Did you compare trespassing to rape? Surely you aren't quite that mind-blowingly ignorant?