To feel a bit sorry for women who cannot protect their own children ?

[notmeagain0]

Don't get me wrong I could never let my children come to any harm but after watching moorside I can't help feel a bit sorry for Karen. She obviously should have protected poor Shannon but I think women like this can be so brainwashed by their boyfriends/ husbands and end up thinking what they are doing is ok. I obviously have no sympathy for the person who commits any crime to a child so don't want this post to appear that I do, just the mother who has been forced into it all

Less pity, more disgust.

I'm in no doubt that there are cycles and those bad parents were raised by less than model citizens themselves.

But in this age of information, you've got to know what your doing (whether that's drugs, hitting, sexual assault etc.) is wrong.

There are numbers to call for help, all it would take is one shining moment if these men/women putting their children first, just for a moment. Making them more important than the love life, drug habit, whatever.

That doesn't happen.

So I reserve my pity for the children affected. And hope that they get removed/supported better.

They still have a chance to break the cycle. It's them we should be focusing on.

The parents have had their chance to stop it.

Lots of people are inadequate as parents. Mostly they love their children and want to be good enough, but often as a result of their own inadequate parents, addiction, poverty, mental illness, learning difficulties etc they just aren't able to do it.

There are also many women who've been through terrible childhoods and have been in abusive relationships but who fight every inch of the way to protect their children.

I don't buy that a mother will allow herself to be brainwashed into abusing her own children. They can be brainwashed into suffering abuse themselves and even feeling they are to blame, but add children to the mix and even women in this situation will wake up to protect their children.

Society today has many escape routes which weren't there 50 years ago so there is always help available.

Your sorry for Karen Matthews because she couldn't protect her children from her own abusive behaviour?

Let me get it clear that anyone male or female who harms a child I have absolutely no sympathy for only anger and disgust. Madein like you say it's the powerless mothers or fathers I feel sorry for.

You know Karen Matthews had been beating and drugging her children for a few years, don't you?

Don't protect her because she's a woman.

I'm pretty sure abusive men and women seek each other out.

Yep sorry, missed out the fathers bit (mistake on my part) , women can be just as abusive as men can be, both to their spouse or their children. Men can be victims too, and i sometimes wonder if the reason dv against males is so underreported is because of the added stigma male victims face.

Why did Karen have a 'terrible' life? I was under the impression she had a normal childhood and plenty of support in the way of family and friends around her.

As for the cycle of abuse. It exists, yes. Its hard to get out of, yes. But a person cannot use that as an excuse to assault, abuse, break the law etc for the rest of their life. There comes a point when a person has to tske responsibility. Having a shit childhood is not an excuse

OP - there are so many scenarios not in KMs case where loving caring parents have to watch as their children get hurt.

My ex and his new DP have emotionally abused my DCs for the past 4 yrs, some subtle, some blatant and their DF has allowed it to happen.

When contact is court ordered you are duty bound to hand over your DCS and await the fall out when they return.

The feeling of powerlessnes and futility knowing what is going to happen and being able to do nothing about it - is immense

I know what you mean OP. It doesn't take away from the fact that it is utterly shit of course but...

It's links in a chain. Mother daughter granddaughter...... and none of them with anywhere to go nor any money when they get there. The adults with low self-esteems, disapproval from society, the men in their lives usually at best benignly sexist, at worse, well, just worse than benignly sexist is never good.

OP, have you watched The Accused from Channel 5 last Monday? Another mother who failed to protect her child from terrible harm.min that case she wasn't herself abusive but she was blinkered to the terrible danger she was placing her child in with very grim consequences.

I think it should be compulsory viewing for all school students at a late stage of school. Devastating example of love simply not being good enough.

I personally feel that you don't become a Karen Matthews if you're from a stable and loving family yourself. You don't become the kidnapping uncle either. A great many children taken into care are the children of people who grew up in the care system. Or worse. I don't know how we can break the cycle but it's too simplistic to say 'oh, she was evil' and leave it at that. What she did to her child was unthinkable, but her moral compass must be completely askew for her to have even considered the kidnap plan, regardless of whose idea it was. There's help available if you realise you need it, but if neglecting and abusing your kids is all you know, then your sense of what constitutes acceptable parenting is totally warped and you just perpetuate the problem for another generation.

"I'm pretty sure abusive men and women seek each other out."

NO. This isn't true. Even if it's not as extreme as a narcissist and an empath, it's a giver and a taker. As my psychotherapist said to me years ago, my relationship functioned dysfunctionally. I gave. He took. Two takers doesn't work. But a giver and a taker are drawn together. ie, a selfless person and a selfish person.

OP, how do feel about CM and MD, who both had diagnosed LDs and an IQ lower than KM?

I'd say (and have on other threads) that there was a strong possibility of sexual abuse throughout their family, given the high percentage of sexual offences and them being ignored.

One of the notes written by

""Shannon to her older brother,
"Do you think we'll get any tea tonight?" Shannon scribbled in one note. In another she said: "If we're quiet we might get a bag of sweets. Don't talk too loud or get a beating.""

I feel for Women/Parents who are unsupported on the removal of their children, regardless of circumstances and unsupported, in general, in regards to their issues.

Being fertile, doesn't, alone win any bonus compassion points.

These types of 'Parents' (KM, TC) lead pitiful lives.

I agree Biscuits. And she would have seen the attention that the McCanns received and the idea of being on the receiving end of support and empathy and concern and pity and attention would have been attractive to a powerless person with a very low sense of self worth. She needed mothering. Mothering by media. Mothering by society. Her inner child was a car crash.

I KNOW she was the adult etc. I know that.

To go back to your original thread title - yes, of course I feel sorry for women (or men) who can't protect their DCs from events beyond their control (illness, bereavement, poverty, homelessness etc. etc. etc.)

I don't have sympathy for parents of either sex who "turn a blind eye" to somebody abusing their own child (or any child for that matter) either for a quiet life or because they "don't know" how to stop it.

I'm not commenting specifically on the Matthews case, as I know too little about it.

Eighth the situation with child/ sex abusers is different. CM and MD, would have been drawn to a vulnerable LP.

She copied a plot from Shamless, the plots aim was money.

was Shannon abused? apart from the drugged under the bed thing

no woman is forced into it ....ever!!

don't add to the myth that women are somehow weak!

I personally feel that you don't become a Karen Matthews if you're from a stable and loving family yourself. You don't become the kidnapping uncle either.

This is untrue. Statistically, it's more likely that Karen/the uncle have a background with a few hallmarks or red flags, but it's not certain. There are many, many cases of abusers/rapists/murderers/even serial killers who have had what we would consider "normal" upbringings.

I don't buy that a mother will allow herself to be brainwashed into abusing her own children. They can be brainwashed into suffering abuse themselves and even feeling they are to blame, but add children to the mix and even women in this situation will wake up to protect their children.

Society today has many escape routes which weren't there 50 years ago so there is always help available.

I agree with this above from olympiathequeen

The reality is that people like feeling like good parents more than they love their children. They'd rather their children stayed in the home to be abused, than actually had a good life.

Karen Matthews is a terrible example because she was an abuser who beat the kids herself.

But tbh I do judge women in DV relationships who intervene to stop their children getting help. I judge HARD.