To disagree with whole class detention?

[orangedaisies]

Dd has sen and is according to schools own words well behaved and a star in school. We have never had any behaviour issues in school ever.

She has only ever in Primary school had whole class detention where the teacher has kept the whole class in in an attempt to peer pressure the disruptive kids into behaving.

Now in secondary school a couple of children in dds class are consistently a pain in the backside. Today one of the teachers gave the whole class detention (I have checked this with another child too) because these kids were talking.

DD has sen and issues with organisation forgot to go. She shouldn't have but she does struggle with planning. When she remembered she went to apologise straight away and was told to go tomorrow instead.

So basically dd has detention on her own tomorrow for forgetting to go to the detention today in which she was being punished for someone else in class talking.

I am entirely wondering what the lesson learned from this for dd is.

I mean she will suck it up and do it but what a crock of shite surely?

[CauliflowerSqueeze]

jamiefraser your sister sounds ridiculous - berating and demanding. All she needed to do was to ring in to say that her daughter wasn't in on the day when the misbehaviour happened, before the detention day happened. That's it. How would her daughter even know it was given? For an 11 year old to be happy to point blank refuse to write lines in a detention, yet turn up to one given on a day she was absent, sounds utterly weird.

Your sister has now totally destroyed her relationship with the school over a non-event which could have been managed with a 2 minute phone call.

Are you actually saying she demanded the headteacher write an apology of 200 lines? If so I think that's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of.

[Cherrysoup]

Mrsjamiefraser, your sister sounds like a nightmare parent that all teachers hate. We had a locked door installed to prevent parents storming in demanding to see parents. (Two shockers a few years ago, glad I didn't teach the kids).

OP, total non event which could've been avoided with a note in your child's planner. I banned whole class dets and had a battle with a new teacher-not my department-who tried to call the whole lot back, including child in a wheelchair and a diabetic who had to inject himself. It's a dumb punishment. Phoning home for a couple of disruptive students is better.

[Cherrysoup]

*demanding to see teachers

[HmmHaa]

It's the sign of an inexperienced teacher or a teacher who has lost control, ime. I banned this in my school. It serves no purpose and often escalates the problem.

However, I can never understand hysterical, pointed reactions to things like this. A note in the planner or a quick phonecall and carry on as normal. Save the dramas for when necessary!

[AnneTwacky]

Yanbu. We were taught "collective responsibility" at school too.
Does nothing to stop kids misbehaving as gives them a sense of anonymity and makes the kids who were trying hard feel like their efforts don't matter.

[myfavouritecolourispurple]

I think I would kick up about this too.


But it's good training for the pettyness of life. For example, our local station has recently closed the loos because of vandalism. Instead of finding out who the culprits are they take the easy route and punish all the station users who may need the loo.

This is very similar. My son's school does not do whole class detentions, it is in their behaviour policy.

HOWEVER

How on earth did she forget it when the rest of her class were going?

I think this time I'd just let it go.

[Glastonbury]

I do not agree with them. My Dd1 had a teacher in Y4 who did this. Her class regularly missed their playtime.

However your Dd was given a detention that the rest of the class managed to attend. It is unfair on everyone else if she doesn't attend.

[Trifleorbust]

I think it depends on what really went on. If your DD said 'one or two' kids were talking and that's accurate, then clearly the teacher isn't managing behaviour properly - why would there be a need to keep back the whole class? If she isn't telling you the whole story (which seems far more likely given the ridiculousness of the above scenario) then why isn't she? I would ask her again why the whole class ended up being detained. Sometimes teachers do give whole class detentions and it does seem unfair, but it deals with those students who think they got away with lower level disruption that they engaged in whilst the naughtier children were more blatant about it, thus contributing to an environment in which no-one could learn.

My approach (when this happens, which is rare and usually when I have a new class) is usually to set the whole class the detention but to let the students go who definitely had nothing to do with the disruption. That way I am being as fair as I can be without setting myself up as 'that teacher' who allows you to get away with behaviour as long as you do it sneakily.

[RufusTheSpartacusReindeer]

They didnt work 30 years ago when i was at school and they dont work now

And i agree with wlf about it turning them against the teachers and not their classmates (although my children are always incensed at the guilty parties)

[MrsWhiteWash]

I'm worried DD1 teacher might go down this route - she is already sending homework home because she can't control the class enough to teach in lesson time .

If the SEN means organisation is difficult - I'd write a letter stating that was why she missed the detention - as soon as she realised she apologised. The original detention was because of other misbehaviour which you'r not pleased about either.

I write your concerned about class room control the impact on your DD, ask why the whole class detention was required - never know there may be a good reason - and ask how they are supporting your DD with organisation and other SEn issues going forward.

Either write to the head of year or the teacher in question - see how the respond and if they can handle situation better going forward.

I did like entire class detentions - it mean my children, usually well behaved children get resentful and impacts negatively on their views of that teacher and even school generally - though they do get over it. They have little control over other children's behavior.

[Trifleorbust]

I don't think SEN is really relevant here. She hasn't been given an additional punishment because she missed the whole class detention. She has been told she needs to complete the same punishment as other students, which is arguably unfair if she did nothing wrong, but nothing to do with SEN imo.

[KayTee87]

Yanbu. One of my teachers at school did a 'pass the punishment exercise' game where he gave one out to a pupil that was talking and they could then pass it on to another pupil that they said was talking - whoever had it at the end of the class had to do it.
Ridiculous to let pupils decide who should be disciplined and disrupted the class more than the original talking. Plus the original talker got away Scott free and got to 'punish' another pupil in the class.
What I'm saying is that often teachers get it wrong and whole class detention is an example of this.

[Trifleorbust]

KayTee87: Sounds like a crank

Having said that, I have (occasionally) let a class decide who should get to go on time while the rest of them had to stay (after I have dismissed the impeccably behaved ones). They almost always do this fairly. Kids have a strong sense of justice when it comes to others.

[Mumofone1972]

I disagree with whole class detention it sounds very much like a teacher has lost control and as pp has said lazy! I would back it in front of a child but have a chat to school to see what could be done

[Aliveinwanderland]

Have any of the people disagreeing with whole class detentions ever taught a class of 32 pupils before?

I have had to use whole class detentions on a very rare but necessary occasion. It shouldn't be done often. Sometimes it is impossible to work out who is causing the disruption, sometimes it's the majority of the class, and so the only way to not let them get away with it is to keep the whole class behind to talk about behaviour.

I know it's not fair. It's also not fair that I have to lose my ten minute morning break after starting work at 7:30am, and so have to work through until 1:30pm doing 6 hours straight without a toilet break or a drink. However, in a bid to make sure children can be taught without disruption to their learning sometimes it has to be done.

[Aliveinwanderland]

Mumofone- teachers don't "lose control". Children are not objects to be controlled. They are responsible for their own behaviour. Teachers are their to teach- part of which includes teaching behaviour and social skills. Not controlling. Children are not zoo animals.

[Trifleorbust]

Mumofone1972: Bit early to say that, really. Even if the teacher didn't have the best handle on behaviour, we only have the child's word for it that 'one or two' people were talking - and that doesn't sound very likely!

[ParadiseCity]

DS had a detention for something he was innocent of. I decided not to raise it with the school so that he could experience a detention (where to go, what you have to do) knowing he was not in trouble at home. I know he worries about organisation type stuff so it seemed like taking the positive from it. However this was with a group of peers. I think if he'd had to go on his own I'd have raised it with school and said he wasn't doing it.

[wasonthelist]

At my school if you tried to take the disruptive kids to task for spoiling stuff they would say "fuck off you cunt", and wait for you later to threaten you or actually hit you.
Whole class detentions did nothing for that.
It certainly taught me that authority figures often do stupid illogical and ridiculous things though. It also taught me that bad schools like mine were run by the worst pupils - like a kids version of a bad prison.

[Trifleorbust]

wasonthelist: That sounds like an extreme situation involving bad management. Nothing to do with the occasional use of whole class detention. We regularly had whole class detentions when I was at school and it worked fine - the culprit usually owned up, in fact.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

My sister then berated the head for wasting hers and her daughters time and demanded all this could have been avoided, she also demanded her daughter get an apology by 200 lines.... and that her daughter would not be doing whole class detentions again.

And they wonder why teachers are leaving the profession and they have problems recruiting....

[ClarissaDarling]

Exactly what alive has said in response- it seems so many parents expect the teachers to 'control' the class and make sure they learn, but only within specific structure of what the special snowflake deems acceptable. As a pp has said on this or another thread, there is a whole generation who will have a rude awakening once they enter the world of work!

[orangedaisies]

Aliveinwanderland I have honestly, ok only as an HLTA but as I have also done cover supervisor training I have frequently (and too frequently in some schools) had to control a class of 30 plus. I honestly know how tough it is.

To the person above who asked about sen. She has a registered diagnoses of a learning difficulty which affects her ability to plan/organise/her memory and also sensory difficulties.

Hence the reason giving her detention on Friday for Monday is a nightmare because it is gone by the end of the day never mind days later which is why I mentioned it as relevant.

She was not the only one who forgot to be fair. I have suspect other people remembering they had forgot is the only reason she remembered about it at all.

Just for the record if she had forgot entirely and not apologised the same day she would have been put in isolation today which is much more serious, goes on school record and received contact home for forgetting to attend a detention in which she wasn't responsible or reactive to the behaviour.

I am just a bit baffled about the moral lesson from this for her. What she has learned from this is.

1. If others are a pain in the backside not only does it wind her up because of her sensory issues but she also gets punished.
   

1. She now hates the teacher and that lesson
   

HmmHaa if I had put a note in her book I was worried about becoming THAT parent and also undermining the teacher to dd.

But it is a huge crock of shite.

[orangedaisies]

Clarissa in what job have you worked in where the manager has kept the whole office back after work to sit in silence for 30 minutes because another worker has been disruptive in the office?

DDs school is very full on in a good way about making them work place ready but I struggle to see when I have ever been disciplined at work for the actions of others being disruptive unless it was a mistake which has been rectified.

I might have been asked if I WOULD stay behind and help sort out someone elses mess but I have never been punished by my boss because a colleague has been an arse.

[Trifleorbust]

OP, schools and workplaces are not the same. That is unreasonable. I am a teacher and I don't get detention if I am late or if I forget my equipment either. The whole class punishment may or may not be a reasonable move (debatable) but the comparison to what would happen in an office is pointless.