That people expect too much from doctors/hospitals

[MerylPeril]

DHs uncle is in a poor way and has been for s long time.

He has spent 70-80% of the last year in hospital. He has hardly been awake for the current visit where his family were told he won't be allowed home again (he goes home for a few days - ends back in hospital). He has a variety of health problems and is in his 80s
I should point out he has been bad at taking notice of medical advice in the past which have made issues worse.

His daughter is furious though.
She harasses nursing staff /doctors/ consultants. She wants all of his issues 'sorted' (I know this is an emotional issue as well) and fixed.

But she also seems to think he should be having personal round the clock care on the wards - and I mean 'personal', for him to be attended too without delay every second of the day.
She talks about putting complaints in because nurses were having lunch etc

I know it's her dad and she loves him BUT it's exhausting us as well - when she's not at hospital she is complaining about how terrible it is.

I've only had amazing treatment from the NHS but there must be a point where they can only do so much. Really he should have been in a home but they blocked that as they wanted him well and home and didn't see why the doctors couldn't do that.

He is the longest lasting out of his siblings currently.
I'm tired out from it on DHs behalf - he watched his own mother die from similar issues and has to listen to it all - whilst secretly believing his uncle (he is also close to) would be better dying quietly than no quality of life.

I'm starting to think that people expect doctors to perform miracles! We've had another long night of this conversation, been the same for the last year. I feel sorry that his daughter and her children are suffering from this now too.

[crashdoll]

Hyster No, he should be treated with excellent care. Everyone should. I've seen substandard care in hospitals and care homes. I report, report, report. Whether someone is going to die tomorrow or in 6 months or 6 years, it doesn't change the fact that they need excellent health and social care for the rest of their lives. Care for ill and older people is hit and miss across the country.

If you can afford to pay, then that's your choice. However, you don't have to and he is entitled to care from the state. Even if people don't have any savings, they do usually contribute most of your state pension (which is to cover costs you would otherwise have e.g. food) but everyone has a personal allowance. By law, the local authority must leave people with enough money per week for toiletries and clothes etc.

[Hysterectical]

Melanie the moron says if I don't make up the weekly £500 they will have to take him to a hostel. She's an actual social worker and has said this in writing. I know I could probably fight tgem but to be honest, dealing with these people is not nice. They are also off sick more often than at work. He's one of those patients who is quite irritating and would definitely be abused away from his safe home. He's also incontinent and very violent. Melanie has never actually met him.

[crashdoll]

Jesus that doesn't sound legal or ethical. If you do want to fight it, I can give you some advice via PM.

[70isaLimitNotaTarget]

Melanie the moron nice

She doesn't make the rules y'know, she (as a Social Worker) merely has to follow them.
You might want to ask MNHQ to pull the name calling?

[Meadows76]

Yes people expect too much. You read it on here every single day. DC/DH/OP has been to GP, been given a diagnosis and then pops along here with the 'should i go to A&E' post. 9 times out of 10 the answer is NO. You are ill, it's going to be unpleasant, it's going to hurt and no amount of going to A&E will change that. Accept what the GP says rather than looking for a magic cure, because A&E don't have that magic cure. They would investigate, diagnose and treat just the same as the GP already has.

Of course there are situations where A&E after a GP visit is necessary, but not because you are still sore. They don't fix sore either.

[Hysterectical]

She is a moron so I'm not too scared about it thanks. But yeah, that's the bit to focus on.

[P1nkP0ppy]

Perhaps speaking to her manager might be more productive than coming on here and calling her a moron Hysterectical ?

[Hysterectical]

I live thousands of miles away. And her manager is off sick long term. Anyway now we pay we don't have to speak to her. I block her emails.

[VelvetSpoon]

This will be controversial but I'm afraid I don't think we should be giving extensive treatment to people over 80. We are failing thousands of people well under that age (my mum died from cancer at 54, my bf was diagnosed in his late 30s. Mum completely failed by NHS, bf largely so), surely they are the ones we should focus on? (palliative) care for those over 80 yes, not suggesting people should just be left to die in pain, but surgery, chemo etc, is it really in their interest? Or do we divert resources to younger patients?

Alternatively do we just move to a private or partially private system?

[OlennasWimple]

End of life care is a big issue that the NHS - and society more generally - needs to wake up to.

I suspect part of the issue is that for 60 / 70 year olds dealing with the imminent death of their 80/90 year old parents is facing the fact that they are also reaching their three score and ten years and it will soon be them lying in the hospital bed. That must be terrifying, for even the most pragmatic of people.

[sofatrainer]

I think that in general the NHS is barely adequate and people's expectations of good health care have become so low that they're prepared to accept minimal standards. There are of course times when it's outstanding but for routine run of the mill care it's pretty poor. That is not the fault of those who work in it, the doctors & nurses, they're dealing with a service stripped to it's core and it's almost impossible to work with but no, the NHS isn't great.

I am lucky enough to have private healthcare and that's a priority in our family. The care we've had using that it in a completely different league to anything we've ever experienced on the NHS. I don't think that a 2 tier health service is ideal but equally I don't necessarily think that an entirely free NHS is either a long term workable solution.

[Petronius16]

Today, car sharing friend and I were talking about much the same thing. To us ancients it appears people now feel they have greater entitlement.

January this year, desperately unwell I walk into our local surgery at 8.30am and was seen within half an hour. The help I got from the surgery over the next two weeks and from 111 was superb.

If I rang today, I'd speak to a receptionist who would arrange for a GP to phone back and decide about an appointment.

Ten years ago our local (County) hospital's A&E department had four emergency ambulances – today the number is the same.

Our town has expanded (like most) with hundreds of new homes and the County even more so. However, there has been no increase in resources and for the local hospital considerable cuts – the dermatology department has just closed for example.

We've all got our tales to tell – some good, some bad – it's not the NHS that fails but individuals who maybe are being asked to do too much.

Please bear in mind that since 1979 the people of this country have voted in governments who not only promised to reduce taxes but to reduce our public services as well.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

This will be controversial but I'm afraid I don't think we should be giving extensive treatment to people over 80

News flash trying to get treatment for those 70+ year olds is rationed. Dfil I think only got his opperation because he still ran a company and worked fulltime and employed other people.

Very dangerous road to go down putting an age restriction on treatment. It doesn't address the fundamental system errors and wastages in not only what the NHS spends money on but also the man hours.

Left unchecked what happens when they reduce the age to 60 or then 50 or 40 or 30. What happens if after testing you go ahead with a pregnancy that produces a child that needs extensive surgery and the NHS refuses as you could have aborted.

Yes I do agree that a partially private system might be a better route to follow or just getting someone to join the dots and make the NHS systems work better instead of witnessing the equivalent of in one department of 5, the equivalent of 2 peoples time were wasted each day because of waiting around.

[permanentlyexhaustedpigeon]

In response to OP - yes and no.

My father is in a very bad way and has had the sort of problems at a young age (60s) that you wouldn't expect.

I have the greatest of respect for the nurses that help to orient him, that make sure he gets a shave every day, that help administer the medication that he can't see and who can move him in a way that doesn't cause him pain.

I have the greatest of respect for the specialist who took time to see him and look thoroughly at his medical history; then to talk with me about it so he could get a full picture of what was going on.

I can't applaud the doctor who said there was no point in diagnosing him and insisted that I sign a DNR without saying why; nor can I applaud the nurse who put the medication he can't see out of reach 'because it encourages him'.

Having a relative in hospital is a hugely emotional experience. I was definitely persona non grata on one ward after complaining about the medication being left out of reach; I always make a point of being polite and respectful, but I couldn't ignore the lack of basic care. I also make a point of thanking all of those who go out of their way to help - I have no idea how they do it.

The NHS is woefully understaffed, and there really are no places for people with complex needs - social care is also so understaffed that it's left to the families to sort everything out, with nothing available to help. Dad is bed-blocking because no nursing home will take him; everyone is agreed that he can't go anywhere else, and we're stuck.

[Anicechocolatecake]

Sorry but I also think the NHS is appallingly inadequate. There are lots of wonderful NHS staff doing a fantastic job and at its best it's brilliant. That doesn't mean there isn't lots of room for improvement. I've had some dreadful experiences over the years. I particularly believe there to be an entrenched misogyny amongst doctors which has hugely affected the care I've had. Don't get a stereotypically woman's condition if you want good care as a general rule.

But it does go two ways. A doctor friend of mine always finds it difficult in that about 70% of his patients wouldn't be on his ward if they a) didn't smoke and b) weren't obese (although I do belief obesity to be very complex and not necessarily the fault of the individual). It would take a huge strain off an overstretched service if people managed their own health better.

[bigbluebus]

How do you decide on who should be treated and who shouldn't based on 'quality of life'?
My own DM (86) passed away earlier this year and up until her admission to hospital with a UTI she had been managing at home with daily visits from carers. However, she didn't consider she had any quality of life as she had been thoroughly miserable since her DH of 60 years (my DF) had died 2 years earlier. She could only go out if we took her (and none of us lived locally) and spent all day watching tv. So although (until she went to hospital) she was physically and mentally ok for a lady of her age, she had lost the will to live. When her hospital consultant rang me to ask our thoughts (and my DM's wishes) regarding resusitation when she took a turn for the worst one day. I did not hesitate to tell him that I felt it was her wish that she would not want to be brought back as she was heartbroken and had given up any will to live once my father died.

My own DD was born with severe disabilities. She has had many health challenges over the years some of which have nearly seen her demise. She now has a DNAR - done with discussions between us and the medical team around her. However, that does not mean that we give up on all medical treatment for her but is an indication of how far it should go. She has recently been admitted to A&E with an infection, she was treated and recovered. Some may say she has no quality of life as she can't walk, talk, is artificially fed, has a severe learning disability amongst many other problems and needs 1:1 care 24/7. But she has a life which is full of appropriate activities for her which as far as we can tell, she enjoys. She is a 'burden' on the NHS and has been for all of her life (not my feelings but the thoughts of many, I'm sure) but I would fight all the way if anyone did not try basic interventions to keep her alive when she is ill. And when she is in hospital, I stay with her as her carer as it is clear that the NHS hospitals cannot provide her with the level of 1:1 care that she needs. I think more of this needs to happen instead of well meaning relatives just turning up at visiting time and shouting the odds. I believe it already happens in other countries.

[Alabastard]

There are two sides. DGM does alone in a side room. She was of the ilk who didn't want to make a fuss and because it was a busy shift nobody realised she was going downhill. She hit the call button when she was in a lot of pain but by the time the noise annoyed someone enough to check she was dead. Perforated bowel.