That people expect too much from doctors/hospitals

[MerylPeril]

DHs uncle is in a poor way and has been for s long time.

He has spent 70-80% of the last year in hospital. He has hardly been awake for the current visit where his family were told he won't be allowed home again (he goes home for a few days - ends back in hospital). He has a variety of health problems and is in his 80s
I should point out he has been bad at taking notice of medical advice in the past which have made issues worse.

His daughter is furious though.
She harasses nursing staff /doctors/ consultants. She wants all of his issues 'sorted' (I know this is an emotional issue as well) and fixed.

But she also seems to think he should be having personal round the clock care on the wards - and I mean 'personal', for him to be attended too without delay every second of the day.
She talks about putting complaints in because nurses were having lunch etc

I know it's her dad and she loves him BUT it's exhausting us as well - when she's not at hospital she is complaining about how terrible it is.

I've only had amazing treatment from the NHS but there must be a point where they can only do so much. Really he should have been in a home but they blocked that as they wanted him well and home and didn't see why the doctors couldn't do that.

He is the longest lasting out of his siblings currently.
I'm tired out from it on DHs behalf - he watched his own mother die from similar issues and has to listen to it all - whilst secretly believing his uncle (he is also close to) would be better dying quietly than no quality of life.

I'm starting to think that people expect doctors to perform miracles! We've had another long night of this conversation, been the same for the last year. I feel sorry that his daughter and her children are suffering from this now too.

[Sadik]

"To add, I have to pay £500 a WEEK to keep my dad off the street."

Actually, a big problem as I understand it is that social care doesn't fall within the remit of the NHS, but is a separate funding pool. In England money has been drained from social care while health funding has been relatively maintained (though of course the load is increasing all the time with ageing population).

In Wales a different decision was made with more money being directed to social care relative to health - which may or may not have been the right choice but has certainly had political repercussions.

[TallulahTheTiger]

hysterical you are rather charmingly living up to your name. Was there not a discharge plan for your father? I would have thought that if his needs are as bad as I am thinking from reading between the lines then he would be entitled to financial help, esp if he has no money of his own- are you funding his costs out of your own money?

[icy121]

Tbf "we" don't all pay for the NHS. Those paying income tax do. Something like the top 3,000 earners in the UK pays as much tax as the bottom 9m. Plus the top 3,000 probably don't use the NHS anyway (or schools for that matter). So for plenty of people the NHS IS free.

Different point, but I think the move to taking more and more people out of income tax isn't good for society's mindset. I don't think it's good if you feel you're getting something for nothing - leads to more "gimme" attitudes. Not saying income tax should be high on lower wages but maybe there should be a notional amount, or an NHS/education "subscription", and then also make cost sheets available (GP appointment: £40 or whatever) so people feel invested but also appreciative.

The OPs sister sounds out f line. It's £400 a night to keep someone in hospital (on average, if they have greater needs - which oldies tend to - then obvs more). She needs to be reminded of that. he sounds like he needs a hospice, which can be wonderful places of calm and love and warmth. If she loves her dad she should consider that. Sell his home and get him into somewhere lovely for a dignified death.

[KitKat1985]

Another NHS nurse here who works predominantly with older people. I think the situation described by the OP is fairly common. Unfortunately as a society we really struggle to accept that there is a point where nothing more (aside basic nursing care - feeding, washing, etc) can be done for a person as we are so used to hearing about 'medical advances' that people sometimes think there is always something than can be done to cure them. Also there are occasions where there may be options that can be undertaken, but families can struggle to consider that those options may not be in someone's best interests (e.g, putting a frail elderly person through aggressive chemotherapy to give, at best, a few extra weeks of life of poor quality).

I can see this from both sides as well as sadly my own Dad has cancer, which is now in the palliative stages and is in the process of being assessed for dementia. I don't really feel he has much quality of life anymore and is a shell of the man he used to be. Having watched many older people die slowly and traumatically of cancer / dementia etc, in many ways I hope he succumbs to a brief complication this winter such a chest infection. It such a sad thing for me to admit, but I've nursed enough people go through the 'slow, drawn out, painful, undignified death' route that I know it would be kinder for him.

[pennycarbonara]

We need to accept that people die when they get old and that we should not try to save everybody.

I've been surprised how often I hear this these days, including from people who are quite conservative or even religious. (Not surprising when there are stories about the divide between MPs opinions on euthanasia and the general public's.)

I've heard way too many instances of care being foisted on very frail elderly people who didn't really want it (including two of my own relatives for whom others had POA, one of whom confided in me that they wanted to escape from the nursing home so they could put an end to it), and expensively prolonging life for short periods for people who are dying imminently, whilst on the other hand, younger people with chronic conditions are often left to rot or fobbed off with inaedquate treatment they wouldn't have to put up with if they could afford private care. Presumably this idea will anger some people, but I think the balance is all wrong.

[expatinscotland]

YANBU

[nolongersurprised]

It's probably displaced guilt that she's not there with him all the time

[icy121]

penny I completely agree with you. Foisting care on people which kills their quality of life just can't be right. Getting people Comfortable and allowing them dignity has to be the preference. Even it means losing weeks/months even a couple of years; what's the point in clinging on in pain? My OH father had a stroke and "lived" in a hospice for 2 further years completely paralysed. I never met him, but by all accounts he would have absolutely hated every moment. i believe the care he got was the bare minimum to keep him alive. Poor, poor man.

A colleague's parent has just gone from diagnosis to dead within 12 days. The last few days in a lovely hospice, surrounded by love, no chemo ruining last few weeks and really as good a death as anyone could hope for.

[crashdoll]

Hyster you're not coming across very well by disparaging so many workers. Also, I'd love to know where you live in the UK that charges relatives for the care of an individual. I suspect you mean that your father is paying for his own care because the law states that people within savings in excess of £23,250 and/or own a property that they are not living in must fund their own care home.

[BarbarianMum]

It's not as simple as "letting people die" though is it? It's also about how they die - so not in pain from bedsores, soaked in their own urine, starved and dehydrated because no-one takes the time to help them eat or drink, or because no-one's taken the time to give them the medications they need. I've witnessed some shocking "care" of the elderly in hospital.

[roundaboutthetown]

Yes and no. Often it's the lack of basic care that people are complaining/upset about, not the medication - the malnutrition because food is delivered to the bedside but nobody seems to have time to help the elderly person eat it; or the dehydration for the same reason; or the bedsores which wouldn't be so bad if the patient weren't left lying immobile for hour after hour; or the soiled, unchanged bedsheets. Hospital is no place for an elderly, dying person.

[roundaboutthetown]

And if you think feeding someone and helping them drink, and changing their bedsheets is keeping them alive unnecessarily, then please don't care for me when I'm elderly! Either take care of my basic needs, or bring in euthanasia.

[crashdoll]

I do think that many family members have a hard time letting their loved one go and by 'go', I mean in every sense of the word. It's incredibly painful to see the strong man that was once your father/grandfather/uncle lying in a bed, unable to do anything and a shell of the person he once was. You think about the man who tucked you in at night, walked you down the aisle, cried when you had your first child and the thought of that person not being here is too painful to accept. The stress and pain of this can manifest itself badly and you find yourself that "demanding and unrealistic" relative who makes medical professionals internally sigh. I think we need to remain compassionate because they are still losing their loved one. Obviously, abuse is categorically not acceptable, so please don't think I am justifying it. As a professional who does receive some abuse, it is hard to remember the human being underneath it all when they're in your face and swearing. That said, most of the time, the frustration I hear is not abuse but anger and distress at the situation and I'm the only person who can do anything to help, even if I must listen to them.

Elderly care in hospitals can be very hit and miss. However, it is very rare to find a member of staff actively ignoring someone. It does happen, of course. Mostly, they are chronically understaffed. I'm stunned at the low staffing levels on the elderly wards, especially when statistically, a significant number of them with have a cognitive impairment such as; dementia, which means they need a LOT of intensive care and support. The NHS and social services is not sustainable in its current form. Something's gotta give and sadly, it will be the most vulnerable who suffer. Actually scrap that, they are already suffering.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

the NHS is free at the point of use. Of course you can't have the tax back - a ridiculous comment showing your ignorance of how public services work

I was actually replying to the poster who said the NHS was a free service.

I too am sick of people moaning about how bad the NHS is and expecting instant diagnoses and miracle cures

Dp went to the doctors complaining of the bulge on one side of his stomach and pain in his lower tummy and constipation and he was loosing weight.

After being admitted to hospital for 10 days because his blood sugars were through the roof (type 1 diabetic). They diagnosed him with an after effect from his leg that he had broken the year before.
I asked if it could be bowel cancer and was treated like I was a hysterical old woman who should get a life and get off google. (FYI dps df had died of bowel cancer in 2007).

Dp spent the 10 days in hospital and visited a selection of GPs at our local surgery every 3 days for about 6 weeks. Each time coming back with a variety of laxatives and suppositories. Each time dismissing the very idea that he might have bowel cancer. Only when I went with him the last time when he had dropped so much in weight that he could hardly stand was he referred to A&E and they finally diagnosed him with bowel cancer. Only problem is by the time it was discovered it was too late and the cancer had burst.

DD was in hospital during the summer in a ward of 5 other women. Everyone had diagnosed themselves and had spent months fighting to get the right treatment including a lady with bowel cancer whose journey to diagnosis was very similar to dps.

I myself was told I needed a new hip when one look after 5 years of constant pain and being barely mobile and getting the money together to go private I was diagnosed with 2 slipped discs. No one had ever looked at my back. Infact the consultant I saw never even looked at me.

There again mustn't moan (that's me being sarcastic if it needs pointing out to others)

[Toddlerteaplease]

My (3rd) treatment for MS cost £11k a dose and I will need 8 doses in total. Plus two hospital stays. I cannot imagine how people in countries where you have to pay for healthcare manage that. Or have to consider not having treatment they need because they can't afford it. I have had nothing but good care on the NHS but yes I agree that people are asking to much from it. It's not a bottomless pit. If NICE had decided that they would not fund my treatment on the NHS I would have been fine with that. They have to look at the wider picture and have done all the research.

[P1nkP0ppy]

I worked as a nurse from leaving school to 2 years ago, 43 years.
Everytime someone complains about the NHS I thank my lucky stars it is there.
An American friend's DH died because they were struggling big time and unbeknown to her he cut back on his diabetes and heart medication in an attempt to make it go further. They also owe 80,000$ for various hospital appointments and admissions; this is passed on to my friend and then their children to pay + interest of course. He was working 18 hour days as a taxi driver, she does three jobs working nearly as many hours, both 7 days a week.

He was found dead in his taxi from a heart attack, aged 48.

Perhaps people just need to be realistic appreciate that the NHS is trying to do it's best and abusing the nursing and medical staff won't help anyone.
I would never want to be a nurse now, thankless task IMO.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

Oh and what does everyone consider to be old.

Friend a nurse thinks 60 years old is a ripe old age. As she said once the only 60 year olds who she sees are all ill. I had to point out that well 60year olds are not in hospital so she wouldn't see them.

Dmil is 91 and is getting out and about. She plays bridge, goes for coffee with her friends. If she got ill with something perfectly curable are we saying she wouldn't get treated because she is old.

[KitKat1985]

Oliversmumsarmy I think what I'm saying is we need to focus more on quality of life when we discuss treatment options. In the case of your Dmil who it sounds like still has a good quality of life, then yes of course, if she developed something perfectly curable it should be treated.

[70isaLimitNotaTarget]

I work in Healthcare (mainly with older people)
"Old"/"Older" to me is late 70s/80s , certainly not 60s

One thing I hear over and over again is how the NHS treats older people differently, how we don't care.
But consider-

If a 20 yo needs antibiotics, their circulation, kidney function, liver function and digestion are good , they have them. Minor side effects hopefully.

A 78yo with renal impairment, less appetite, constipation, mild dehydration, probably a cocktail of tablets. The same antibiotics for them might need to be a lower dose, longer term.
They don't like the side effects. They get constipated. They strain their hearts with the effort of 'going'. So they get senna, the bowel gets lazier... They need to ensure they tailor their eating:tablets. And side effects.
So its not that the Dr doesn't care, its that you cannot compare.

And I grind my teeth to dust when I hear the "I paid in all my life"
The healthcare they are recieving now is coming from tax paid by people now.
All these people who "don't pay a penny" but get everything handed to them.
The money they gave is long gone as is the 'best days' of the NHS.
I also say "So, if a baby is born today and needs SCBU £100s a day, but they haven't paid in. Do you say "No"? If the baby's mother hasn't worked , you can't make that ££ stretch 20 ways"

The NHS is wonderful and rubbish in equal measure.
The people who work for the NHS are People. We don't respond well to being yelled at , but 99.99% of the time its better to say nought and hopefully the Yeller will think later I've been a turd and reconsider.
I have seen many changes, some good, some not.
There are (like all workplaces) some brilliant clever people, some that do their level best at the expense of their own health, breaks, lunchbreaks.
And some that really shouldn't be anywhere near a living person let alone one who is ill.



There ain't no pleasing everyone. So I have learned.

[Batteriesallgone]

This is why when physical care reaches a certain (high) standard, psychological/emotional care needs to also be offered.

Therapy for those facing care issues with relatives (along with a million other reasons for therapy) ought to be freely available on NHS. Imagine the funds saved if all the relatives fixated on keeping dying parents / siblings alive as long as possible had had a chance in therapy to explore their feelings about said relative getting frail, old, and dying.

But the NHS isn't joined up and no one wants to fund therapy.

[Hysterectical]

Hyster you're not coming across very well by disparaging so many workers. Also, I'd love to know where you live in the UK that charges relatives for the care of an individual. I suspect you mean that your father is paying for his own care because the law states that people within savings in excess of £23,250 and/or own a property that they are not living in must fund their own care home.

I'm not.disparaging individual workers I am pointing out its a flawed system that kills people.
My father lives in Hampshire. He has no money. No savings. Nothing. His home is £755 a week. They pay the £255 and I pay the rest plus extras he needs on top of his pension. I also pay for a private GP. He does not get anything else and his social worker, a ridiculous woman called Melanie gave me the voice of his being discharged to a hostel or finding the funds to keep him there. I don't need to lie about it so do.let me know if you would like me to screen print the emails from her with this proof and pm it to you.
But, yeah, typical ignorant behaviour. If someone doesn't agree with you, call them a liar. Cheers for that.

[crashdoll]

Hyster I didn't call you a liar but if you are paying for this, it is illegal and wrong. I could help you but if you're going to be rude, no skin off my nose.

[crashdoll]

It is a flawed system but if you have an attitude, people don't tend to go above and beyond to help you.

[Hysterectical]

I don't actually mind paying, I don't pay tax so I think it's a sweet justice that the money I save keeps him safe. It's just sad that without it he would be so vulnerable it's untrue. And I am not hanging on to him. I would love for him to be released.from his torturous life. I just don't believe that he should have to do it soaked in urine being ignored and humiliated. It.isn't much to.ask really.

[Oliversmumsarmy]

But Kit kat we all know it wouldn't be. It would be put down to her age and told she should be grateful for what she has had.

Dfil was told that he would not survive an operation to remove as much cancer as they could and was told to go away and enjoy what time he had left.

He battled to get them to operate and even when they finally agreed they warned him he was either going to die on the operating table or at the very least spend a good few months in ICU. Even if he came out the other end he only had a short time to live

He was out of the operation and spent only a few hours in ICU before going on to the general ward. He was out of hospital a week later and lived another 6 years. He was 87 when he died. They refused point blank to give him chemo. We are left wondering whether if he had been given chemo would he be with us today.

I am afraid for dmil because when nurses and doctors see her age then they will just write her off.

It is all well and good talking about quality of care for supposedly terminally ill patients. What happens if the diagnosis is wrong.