Controlled crying

[FuckFaceMagee]

Aibu to wonder how people do it?

I honestly can't listen to a baby cry longer than a few mins, at a push.

[MGFM]

I don't know if what we did counts as CC but we just used to give DS a few minutes to cry it out and he usually then fell asleep. He has very different cries. The 'I'm in pain cry' is very obvious and we are straight in there. 'Wake up in the night for no reason cry' he gets 10 mins at night to go back to sleep. Usually only takes a few mins. 'Before bed whinge' when we first put him down. Sometimes no crying at all but occasionally he will have a whinge. He just wants more cuddles. Whilst I don't like leaving him to cry, I think it is beneficial in the long run and now we have a really good sleeper. He was a terrible sleeper as a baby and up until he was about 8 months old we would never have left him to cry but from then (now 18 months) we have had this approach. It works for us. He sleeps through 730pm - 630am.

[Carrados]

I'm going to be just as provocative as the OP.

I judge people who complain about their child not sleeping through when there are methods out there to help them that don't involve leaving your child in distress. For us, it was more controlled moaning and going in and physically comforting dd would make her worse and more distracted from sleep. Having the strength to do this is is being a parent and doing what's right for your kid. It's not right if you and your dc are tired, struggling and tempting mental health issues (this was me after birth) with lack of sleep. Children need sleep and need to learn to have a proper night. It's your responsibility to teach them how to do that (I know there are genuine issues with sleeping and children) and do your best to nip any sleeping issues in the bud. I've left gentle parenting forums because of the endless complaining about lack of sleep and the constant just doing what dc want instead of ever stepping in and saying 'im the parent, sometimes (not always) I know best'. Kind of martyr to their dc's choices that they don't even exist as people other than being mothers, and their dc are often the most annoying at playgroups.

So how can you leave your child to cry? First of all, don't leave them to distressed cry and second of all, because we're parents and sometimes you have to steel up and do what's right for your kids.

[Callaird]

You don't have to do controlled crying, there are many ways to get to the same solution but CC is by far the quickest way.

I have sleep trained many children, they were never left for more than 5 minutes of crying, the key is to not to pick them up, go in, put your hand on their tummy/back and ssshh them. Don't talk except to say, it's time for sleep, ssshh until calm but not sleeping. Walk out, shut the door, hover feeling slightly sick (even as an experienced nanny it makes my heart beat faster and feel uncomfortable but I know that a good night sleep is the best thing for a child so worth it in the end.) 5 minutes later go back in, repeat as needed. Every time you go back in, it's letting your child know that you are there for them, keeping calm and reassuring them lets them know they are loved. You are not abandoning them to cry the night away, that's neglect!

Your child should be much easier to train at 3.5 using a combination of cc and bribery sticker charts/goal jars.

[0hCrepe]

I did it with dd because I was knackered after being wrestled and used as a dummy all night long and she was knackered too. Neither of us were happy during the day and I had an older ds too.
I kept her in her cot leaving her to cry and her crying was anger. It actually made her worse going in. Anyway after a couple of nights she realised she was supposed to be staying in her cot and she slept through. Both of us much happier after that. It was horrible but she overall she cried far less after that as she wasn't tired all the time. She was 18m I think. Wish I'd done it earlier. She's 10 now and an amazing girl.

Don't confuse attachment disorder theory which comes from child neglect, with allowing a well cared for child to cry for a short while. A well cared for child is resilient and can cope; very different to neglected children whose basic needs have not been met from a young age.

If your dd is 3 it's way beyond the baby crying stage, you can talk to her about it and do rewards etc. To make it positive. Of course she'd prefer to be in with you but she can learn to love her own room and be supported in knowing how to go back to sleep without you helping her.
Do you never have to deal with a situation where she's crying because she can't have her own way?

[MrsPatrickDempsey]

Carrados and MGFM - I agree; good posts.

[coconutpie]

No way would I ever do CC. It's cruel and I don't think there's any excuse for letting a baby get into that level of distress trying to "train" them to sleep. Babies aren't manipulative, they don't need to be trained to stop crying because that's what it is - they stop crying as they know there's no point anymore. Sleep is a developmental milestone - they'll do it in their own time. Yes, sleep deprivation is torture but it's still no excuse.

[nooka]

Generally they stop crying because they are asleep!

[0hCrepe]

We train babies and toddlers to do loads of things, why should sleep be excluded from this?

[Togaparties]

You do it by knowing the difference between their cries

Absolutely this. Our DD has some very distinctive cries when put down to sleep though doesn't cry most nights. There's one which means "I'll be asleep in 5-10 mins" and another which means "I am absolutely not going to sleep, no fucking way" the former gets ignored the latter immediate attention.

[NellWilsonsWhiteHair]

We train babies and toddlers to do loads of things, why should sleep be excluded from this?

But the converse is also true - we allow them to reach loads of developmental milestones in their own time (crawling, walking, talking, eating), why should sleep be excluded from this?

[0hCrepe]

That's just not true at all. We train them to talk and eat etc, we start them on solids before they can get them themselves and we choose what they eat; we are training them to talk as soon as they're born and we interact and talk to them. It's a huge part of language development.

[LostInMess]

Because it's in the interests of the whole family.

Just about to try it with DC4 who is 10 months old and wakes at hourly intervals from midnight on. We co-sleep (out of desperation), it's no longer safe as he is so mobile and it is killing my back as he tries to latch on whenever he surfaces. It is having a very detrimental effect on my mental health and this in turn is impacting my other children.

None of mine have been sleepers and with hindsight I'd have sleep trained DC3 as the impact was similar. He's still prone to nocturnal wandering at 4.5 and it's not nice for him being tired in the day with older siblings to wind him up.

Am not looking forward to it but that is what will get me through. And I'll be in at short intervals - leaving a child for 30 mins isn't controlled crying.

[Carrados]

I think it's cruel to the baby, caregivers and family members not to guide sleep and learning to settle themselves during the night.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair - because the person who usually has to deal with lack of sleep is a mother at her wit's end & it can affect the entire family and other siblings. And, because there are so many benefits from having a good night's sleep. I personally noticed a transformation in dd when she had a good sleep.

We coach dcs to walk, talk etc so I think the point about developmental milestones either way is a moot one.

[0hCrepe]

Having working with children with complex mental health needs and their families, one thing that cropped up a lot was the link with maternal mental health. Mothers need to look after themselves too.

Babies and toddlers cry for loads of reasons as well. Sometimes they need to learn it can't be helped eg when being left with someone so their mum can go to work, or they can't have the sweets they want, or because they are tired.
All babies have times when crying is inevitable and normal without there being this anxiety around it all.

[JasperDamerel]

I taught my children to talk by talking to them, and responding to them when they made noises.

I don't think I did teach my children to walk - they just did it. But I provided them with opportunities to develop the skill of walking by letting them see me walk, giving them appropriate flat surfaces to move on, and things (including me) to pull themselves up to standing on and to hold on to until they were confident to walk alone.

I taught my children to eat by giving them milk when they were hungry, and by eating in front of them and giving them access to food so that when they were ready to start eating solids they just helped themselves.

I didn't need to teach my babies to sleep - they slept from their first day. They just didn't sleep in a way that fitted in with my adult sleep patterns. I taught them good sleep hygiene by giving them a safe place to sleep and a consistent bedtime routine based on their body clock, and eventually they anticipated bedtime and went happily to bed and slept through the night at the age when they were developmentally ready to do so without intervention.

I don't think that sleep training is horribly cruel and causes long term damage unless it's done in a very extreme way. For many families, it is the best way to keep everyone happy. But for many other families, responding to a waking baby with cuddles/milk/whatever soothes that particular baby is the best way for that family, and that's just another, slower but equally valid, way of helping a baby to sleep.

[LostInMess]

Some good points here.

The other one I would make is that not all children sleep through when they are ready - as I said up thread, we still have issues with DC3. It is much, much easier (and kinder in my opinion) to tackle it when they are younger. And if you have the type of baby who gets wound up by you being in the room and not picking him up (like me!), it doesn't need many options open to you.

[sandylion]

Controlled crying is not the same as cry it out. From my experience I was listening to him crying for hours on end in my arms from sheer exhaustion. I did my own version of CC so I left him for not longer than 6 mins between cuddles and he was sleeping through from night 1. That first night was tough but being unable to get him to sleep with more gentle methods was tougher.

[humblesims]

i did this with DS1 (now 17) it was horrendous and I dont actually know how I did it. it felt like torture but i persevered and it sort of worked. but the cost was way too high. it is my only real regret about parenting. DS is now a happy well adjusted teen but my advice would be not to do it. i feel guilty about it even after all these years.

[LaurieMarlow]

And if you have the type of baby who gets wound up by you being in the room and not picking him up (like me!), it doesn't need many options open to you.

This was my experience. The months we spent on 'gentle' sleep training were more damaging and traumatic IME than couple of days it took for CC to work.

[0hCrepe]

Waking can become a habit though rather than out of distress or a need for something. It can help them to learn to break that habit and get a good night's sleep rather than wait for them to just stop which takes longer the longer the habit is ingrained.

[NellWilsonsWhiteHair]

See, all of those things I'd argue we provide a facilitative environment for - as you say, we teach them to talk by talking with them, talking around them, motherese etc etc; we (often, currently) teach them to crawl by offering them tummy time etc. And with sleep, we almost all teach them about sleep by putting them to bed at a fairly consistent time, somewhere dark, usually after a reliable winding-down bedtime routine etc. And when they wake in the night, we encourage them back to sleep. This is true of almost all parents. Its completely incorrect to suggest that people who stay with their baby while it goes to sleep are not also teaching their baby to go to sleep and stay asleep. They're still facilitating a situation where the child is eventually able to go to sleep alone.

Just because I expected my son to be able to crawl at 8/9mo, I didn't plonk him on his tummy alone and out of reach of his toys for many minutes on end at 4mo. That's the more comparable scenario to CC IMO. I didn't hold him in a prolonged and uncomfortable standing position which he didn't yet have the muscles to sustain, because in months or years it would be an important skill for him to be able to walk. Same reason I didn't leave him to cry himself to sleep.

I am possibly biased because when I did have to leave him to cry (eg so I could get washed in the morning) he didn't ever 'cry down', he just cried up and up and up. I am reliably informed that some babies cry down, but mine didn't.

[LaurieMarlow]

Just because I expected my son to be able to crawl at 8/9mo, I didn't plonk him on his tummy alone and out of reach of his toys for many minutes on end at 4mo. That's the more comparable scenario to CC IMO

I don't think that's comparable at all. The thing about CC is that it's usually very effective, working much faster than gentler sleep methods.

What you describe above would not help a child crawl any faster or more effectively, so there are no benefits at all, just a distressed child.

[JasperDamerel]

For me, it basically came down to the fact that in general, if all my instincts are screaming at me not to do something, I generally don't do it unless there is a very good reason not to trust my instincts. The times I haven't done this have generally caused me to regret my lack of faith in myself.

[Chopstick17]

I did it with both DC. Took a few nights. Was hard. I sat on the stairs going in every 2mins, then 5, then 7, then 10 etc. Worked a dream and happy baby and mummy for ever after! Not for the faint hearted but it works very quickly.

[LostInMess]

Different things do and don't work for different babies. I have learned that through having 4.