...to think that religion wouldn’t be so prevalent if parents and schools didn’t indoctrinate children?

[WhatALoadOfOldBollocks]

Just that really. I was brought up in a religiously neutral environment (at home at least), which allowed me to make my own mind up, yet so often children are raised according to the beliefs of their parents, which is fair enough if the teachings are taught as theories rather than facts. I have often wondered how many people, if raised in religiously neutral environments, would choose faith over science for want of a better phrase. My theory is that more would reject than adopt faith if not indoctrinated from an early age, but that's just my musings.

I must add, my Mum was a primary teacher. She refused to teach Christianity as fact. She trained as a mature student in the 1970s - and she was very much unusual in her views. She was always respectful but she told bible stories as stories and always leaned towards the 'moral ed' side of religious and moral ed. RME was quite a new concept then, i think - and she had some very interesting chats with lecturers. Looking back, she was brave to do that in those times. Now it should and could be different.

Although I'm Catholic, part of the reason I put my children in catholic school was because I felt they needed to learn about religion to be able to question it. They are not indoctrinated and RE taught as fact, but as a belief system. I don't think it's any less correct to say god doesn't exist, than does.

Their school teaches all religions. They have a muslim student teacher at the moment and the girls have learned a lot about head coverings and the reasoning behind it.

To me, organised religion is more of an issue then the belief in one god or another. You can believe in god and still question whether certain religious practices are right.

I am also a scientist fwiw.

My kids were born atheists. It is my job to keep that slate clean until they have the capacity to make an informed choice.
Unfortunately their local primary school is zealous in its indoctrination.

Schools don't indoctrinate children.

You ever been to a CofE or RC primary? They most certainly do indoctrinate children.

• I don't think it's any less correct to say god doesn't exist, than does.

I disagree. Children are born atheists.

I wonder how you think that would work?

I go to church, my children are too young to stay home, therefore they come with me. My faith, my beliefs, are taught by me and by the church we attend.

One child is deeply religious with a personal faith and very close relationship to God. Another thinks the whole church thing is very boring, and I'm sure she will opt out as soon as she's old enough to be home alone. That's fine; my love and acceptance isn't in any way dependent on her beliefs.

But I don't think you can expect parents to raise children in a secular environment when that isn't their belief system. Or would you like to prevent me from attending church do my children weren't exposed to the dangers of learning about a loving God? I don't have anyone I can leave them with...

It worked in my own family. Who now include half a dozen Christians with PhDs and one agnostic/non-believer. Mostly scientists (I'm not) with a deep and living faith; not sure why you consider the two to be incompatible?

Simplest explanation for religion and science - and please forgive me if it's over simple. The atheist looks at the science and marvels at the beauty of the science itself, the one with religion looks at the science and learns more about the one who designed the world in such an amazing way. Both driven to make new discoveries, both equally competent, each with a different worldview.

Both me and my dh are Catholic and our children have been baptised Catholic and go to a Catholic school. We believe In God, obviously but we don't shove it down our children's throats, for want of a better expression. They can believe in what ever they want and we encourage them to ask questions which they do at times, and even debate things with us. Obviously they are taught about their faith at school but much like other schools they learn about a lot of faiths in their compulsory re lessons. My children aren't being indoctrinated. They seem to really enjoy learning about faith and they're at an age were they can make their own minds up about it. They know that there are people who go to church twice a weeks and are committed practising Catholics. Me and my dh aren't the same. We believe and feel strongly their is a god but we aren't heavily practising. Our children never question this and are quite happy to go to church a couple of times a year for mithering Sunday, Easter and Christmas but that's about it. They are happy laid back children who love life and are they are doing really well at school. There's no indoctrination going on, well at least not in our case anyway.

Of course you are indoctrinating your children.
They are not Islamic- is it s coincidence they are developing a belief that is the same as yours?

Schools don't indoctrinate children

Sorry but I'm sat here laughing very hard at this comment. Not heard of faith schools then?

Non faith schools indoctrinate children too.

Non faith schools indoctrinate children too.

Very true, as an atheist I find a daily act of collective worship sickening. Think I'm going to opt my child out when she hits school age. No- one is going to indoctrinate my child. Mother in law (reverend) tries her best but has failed so far.

the one with religion looks at the science and learns more about the one who designed the world in such an amazing way

This religious scientist thing really baffles me. How can one accept some credible research and not others?

My son went to a CoE primary. Purely on the grounds it was the only school that was walkable and I believe ideally kids should walk to school. I did have some concerns about indoctrination but they were unfounded. My son had no more religious instruction in Christianity than I had at another local primary in the area forty years earlier but he was also taught about other religions in a respectful manner and his Muslim pal's parents were happy with how their son was taught too.

I don't agree there are few adult religious converts. I have family who converted from Judaism to Christianity as well as friends raised by atheists who converted to Christianity as adults...oh and aforementioned Muslim friend of son's mother was an adult convert to Islam too and more.

I do believe if you are raised with a faith it enables you to critically appraise other religions whereas the ignore it and teach your kids nothing expect disrespect for religion style of atheism actually makes religion more attractive as it is offering something to fill a spiritual void without anything to critically compare it to. I think schools have a responsibility to teach comparative faith at the very least so kids have the tools to make their own decisions wisely.

I think children who don't come from a religious background are

A. Less likely to make any sort of informed choice about religion as they get older. Those who know what they are rejecting, can reject it from a position of knowledge. Those who have not been told about religion can neither accept nor reject it as they tend to remain wholly ignorant of it

B. Those who start with no religious knowledge are more likely to fall for cultish groups and religions in later life. IMO they prey on the ignorant and vulnerable.

Which is why, although I am personally atheist, I am happy for DC to attend a faith school (actually a nursery at the moment). I go to church when required, I just don't take communion.

Jack "Mithering Sunday". Love it ....you win typo of the day 😀

Natty if you want to take your children to church that's absolutely your right. Given that, there's surely no need for the daily act of Christian worship legally required to be held in non-faith state schools.

I'm all for religious EDUCATION (ie learning about all belief systems including "none") but religious INSTRUCTION is something I should not have to opt my daughter out of.

Done. Unless children are exposed to the worship features of all faith systems, your arguments crumble into dust.

By nature a faith school will enforce worship from only the faith they practice. So your children can reject that one, but what about all the others?

fruitcider- you may find that it's not so simple as that.
Our school staff were mostly all religious. My DD was taught the story of Noah's ark and thought it was a history lesson. There was a "table of God's creation" ( a nature table) set up in the classroom. I volunteered in the school for years and was amazed at the constant reference and throwaway comments that the teachers made. "Oh look children the sun has come out, God is smiling on us today", or "isn't Jesus wonderful".

I chose not to remove my children from weekly assembly as they would have missed out on lots of important things- school announcements, singing happy birthday, lots of awards ( sometimes my children were recipients), it seemed rather punitive to have my kid sitting in a classroom alone and missing that.

Why the biscuit MrTumbleForPM?

"It's none of your business how families raise their children. Your way is not the best way."
So, rather than neutrality you prefer brainwashing/indoctrination then? OK.

"Schools don't indoctrinate children."
Well, I went to non-faith schools yet religion was taught as fact not theory and we had assembly (including prayers) every morning. I got pissed off with teachers telling me what Jesus did without being able to back any of it up with evidence. I thought how could they "lie" to me! I was at school to learn facts; opinions, interpretations and theories taught as fact is just wrong IMHO.

"But if you honestly believe in your faith/religion, how can you not encourage our children to learn about it and accept it for themselves?"
Provided it's taught as a theory not fact I don't see the problem. More "we believe..." than "Jesus said..."

"There is no such thing as a religiously neutral environment"
I don't agree. It's possible for teachers and parents to inform children about the different faiths in such a way that it's taught as theories. eg "christians/muslims/jew believe...yet athiests believe..."

"I'm not sure you are right. It's quite a simplistic argument you are suggesting."
I know I was simplistic but I was struggling to think how to phrase it initially (the religious Vs scientific for example...I too know people who are both) and it was also just musings that I wondered if others shared.

"Of course you are indoctrinating your children. They are not Islamic- is it s coincidence they are developing a belief that is the same as yours?"
Exactly pearlylum. If the children of catholic parents (as an example) were not indoctrinated, they'd just as likely be athiests, muslims, etc.

We bring our children up with the values that areimportant to us, be that faith or atheism. For some people, neither is important. I've read that people brought up with no view whatsoever on faith are more likely to join cults than those brought up with either an active faith or a literate atheism. I don't know how reliable the source was, but it makes sense to me.

And what you call indoctrination, I call teaching values that I value.

So as an atheist it's impossible for me to teach my daughter to be kind without using a religious story? Bullcrap.

It's perfectly possible to pass on values without outdated religious dogma.

This religious scientist thing really baffles me. How can one accept some credible research and not others?

I don't understand what you mean by this, unless you're talking about evidence for the Big Bang and evolution? Most Christians accept both of these to be scientific fact without causing any issues with their faith.

Erm, religion isn't prevalent.