To think Obama SHOULD apologise to the people of Japan?

[HappenstanceMarmite]

For his country decimating Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Yes, he wasn't personally responsible. But I believe a heartfelt apology - and the taking of ownership for his country's atrocity - would mean a lot to the victims' families ...and all of Japan actually.

they were encouraged to do whatever the glory of the Emperor necessitated, and to feel they all had a stake in the glory of Japan.

I think you can, mutatis mutandis, make that point of all the colonialist powers, including the UK and France. We now know, from the perspective of 2016, that colonialism doesn't end well, and any substantial colonial power will be committing atrocities under the guise of liberation or development or whatever. So if today we see an exceptionalist colonial project, we automatically assume that even if its intentions are good, its outcomes are sure to be bad. I'm not sure anyone realised that, in any of the colonial countries, in terms, in the 1920s and 1930s when the Japanese wartime regime was coming to power, and in particular I doubt that your typical Japanese, in a very isolated country, would have realised it.

Whereas in Germany, the anti-Semitism was happening in the streets, and although there is much debate about why it was that the Nazis were more coy about the holocaust in Germany itself than they were elsewhere, the argument that Germany as a whole was not (a) anti-Semitic and (b) knew roughly what Hitler intended doesn't bear close examination. Not to the point of Goldhagen's argument that whole population were eliminationist anti-Semites, but consideration of how few academics refused the promotions opened up by the expulsion of Jews from universities is sobering.

"Not to the point of Goldhagen's argument that whole population were eliminationist anti-Semites"

Why not to that point? They were

Why not to that point? They were

Leaving aside the obvious point that a fair part of the population were themselves Jewish (I assume you're doing what Goldhagen does and drawing a distinction between "Germans" and "Jews", which was of course precisely what the Nazis did), a single counter example negates a claim that everyone was involved: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl

If anyone is in any doubt as to the cruelty and horrors of the POWs in Burma, please do read The Narrow Road to the Deep North by Richard Flanagan. It is a truly brilliant book, as well as one of the most harrowing I have ever read - and I am well read. I can also recommend Ballard's 'Empire of the Sun and the early parts of The Kindness of Women' in which he documents the way Chinese peasants were imprisoned and literally worked to death by the Japanese. In their thousands.

OP - I am no condoner of violence but I can honestly say that in my opinion Japan brought the double hydrogen bombing on itself. They bombed Pearl Harbour and had a massively expansionist, invasion-led modus operandi. The regime of torture, mass rape and annihilation they practised needed to be stopped. In short - they had it coming.

Japan has NEVER apologised for its actions and as other posters have pointed out, has never even acknowledged its culture of so called 'comfort women' (but please - let us be candid here and call it sex slavery).

Obama was right not to apologise; it's Japan which ought to be doing that.

Japan brought the double hydrogen bombing on itself

Atomic (fission) bomb. Hydrogen (fusion) bombs come later.

Anyone mentioned what they did in Manila yet?

I was lectured by someone in Surrey once on the "evilness" of the Hiroshima bombing. I asked her what she thought of the Rape of Nanking. She'd never fucking heard of it.

I must say, I've found this thread fascinating to read, primarily due to the very helpful contributions of very knowledgeable posters, particularly Bolograph. Many thanks.

I agree Augusta; and thanks Bolograph for correcting my inaccurate reference to hydrogen bombs. Doh!

Reading the Wikipedia page about the Rape Of Nanking I actually feel ill.

Am I right in thinking that a few years back when Hirohito visited the UK, a large group of old Japanese POWs and their descendants turned their back on him as he processed down the Mall? I seem to recall something like it..

Bolo, when you asked me "when were you last there?" where did you mean?

I think it is dealt with in some countries. For example a few years ago MIL was on holiday in Egypt. She got talking to a young German man in his 20s who told her he was from Dresden. When MIL said she was sorry about what had happened to his home city during the war (she herself was evacuated from London as a small child during the Blitz) he replied "It's ok, we deserved it!"

Japan, as has already been mentioned, have tried to ignore/cover up their history by neglecting to teach it fully in schools. This BBC article looks at the subject.

Pepperpot, may I suggest The Rape of Nanking, by the late Iris Chang for some grim, if one-sided, accounts of the atrocity. The photos in particular are awful.

sorry op but look what they done in pearl harbour and all the other atrocities they commited .all is fair in love and war as they say . am i to get an apology for the things done to my grandfather .i doubt it .

Japan refuses to apologise for its behaviour towards POW's, 'comfort women', and its human rights abuses, so no, Obama should not apologise.

This.

The Japanese domestic view of the war is ALL about the events at the very end. Selective memory about a range of truly awful events.

Japan, as has already been mentioned, have tried to ignore/cover up their history by neglecting to teach it fully in schools

A tiny bit of devil's advocate here, but Japanese schools teach very little about discussion at all. A western history exam might have an essay question along the lines of "The shooting of Franz Ferdinand in no way caused World War One - discuss". A Japanese exam, which will only be fifty minutes long, will contain multiple choice and fill in the blank questions, like "Which of the following countries did not sign the Treaty of Versailles?"

That's not to deny that Japanese schools ignore their aggression in WW2, but the lack of discussion is not limited to that.

Bolo, when you asked me "when were you last there?" where did you mean?

At the Hiroshima museum. The wall-displays changed between my several visits.

Thanks. I was last there in 2009, and Yasukuni in 2005.

Interesting thread - thank you all.

I always thought that one reason Germany were more able to kind of separate itself from their war behavior by it being the 'Nazi's' whereas Japan didn't have that option, especially since they retained the Emperor system, (which is awkward). Would you says thats right?

On the racism thing - both are terrifying but in different ways. German anti-semitism was incredible because many German knew Jews/were friends with Jews and yet chose hate. However, Japan being such a homogeneous/insular nation for centuries, meant that the people didn't 'know' any 'outsiders' (they had just heard how inferior they were) but went along with their leaders/the system because that's what you do..
Is that a fair characterization, do you think?

Thanks. I was last there in 2009, and Yasukuni in 2005.

When I was there in early 2011 I think the "poor us, why did this happen, we were innocently minding our own business" had been toned down. In about 2005, it was still at full volume.

Japanese colleagues (I worked for a Japanese company for about 15 years, so visited fairly frequently) were scathing about Japanese education more widely, and history in particular.

especially since they retained the Emperor system, (which is awkward)

It's fairly obvious that had the allies made the ending of the emperor system (what's always referred to in texts as the "polity", which has most of us scurrying for the dictionary) a condition of surrender the Japanese military would not have surrendered.

The FDR is sui generis in terms of facing up to wartime atrocities. The DDR never accepted any legacy, nor did Japan, and the way in which Austria was able to convert itself from enthusiastic participant to innocent victim (a move that suited the cold war realpolitick) is hideously impressive.

Too true (wrt Austria). A few chickens coming home to roost there at the moment.

'The Sound of Music' is a good example of brave little Austria ruled by a foreign posse possessed by an alien spirit. The redemption of Nazi Germany in American propaganda (involving separation of Germans into Nazis and all the rest) and the quick turn to vilification of all things Soviet should be a sobering reminder of how easy it is for a propaganda machine to suck people in. It continues to this day, with the USSR replaced by Russia and much 'othering' of all things Russian - ('good' and 'bad' archetypes portrayed).

The victors of course decided the shape of post war denazification in the former Germany. In the east, the process of denazifiaction took on the cast of a class war - no surprises there. The bourgeois and the Nazis were lumped together as enemies of the proletariat. People with connections or who were useful to the Communist regime in DDR were spared repercussions of crimes they may have committed. In the FDR a similar cherry picking of useful Nazis tool place. The Allied powers were not squeamish about co-opting scientists for western Cold War military purposes, or using scientific knowledge that was gleaned in horrific circumstances, medical experiments, etc., in both Japan and the Third Reich, and many administrators and medics continued in their pre war professions. West Germany's former intelligence chief was a Nazi.

The idea of the Wehrmacht as a separate body that never dirtied its hands in the east the way the SS did was one that was not really challenged.

Helmet - what is interesting about Japanese feelings towards outsiders was (is?) that the dual nature of entities, a feature of Japanese traditional literature, came into play. Obviously, Japan had leapt into modernity thanks to engagement with the west, and the capacity to wage a 20th century war was thanks to importation on a vast scale of western technology and western invention. There was a love hate relationship. The outsiders were very much 'othered' whether loved or hated.

Bolograph, I think Goldhagen made a convincing case. There were pitifully few examples of opposition to the Nazi regime and fewer still explicitly speaking out on behalf of the Jews or making gestures on behalf of Jews. I think it is disingenuous to suggest that Goldhagen was in any way seeing distinctions between Germans and Jews in the same way that the Third Reich did. You cannot discuss the Holocaust without reference to Jews as a separate class of people under the Nazi regime.

Speaking of the FDR response to the war - I think that was something that was extremely striking for me. I lived in both Germany and Japan a couple of years apart (German in 1999/2000, Japan in 2001/02). In Germany I had many conversations about the war, and was amazed to here university students my age (so, early to mid 20s) talk about their feelings of guilt. As I said before, in Japan, I was spat at for reading The Rape of Nanking admittedly not the cleverest choice of book, I may have been a little naive

This bit struck me in your post math

The outsiders were very much 'othered' whether loved or hated

My experience of Japan and the Japanese is that this is still very much the case. Certainly as a westerner living in a small town, I experienced it, and I felt the culture and media promoted that. Whereas the German reaction after the war (encouraged by the Allies, I would imagine, but also perhaps because of the fact that the land war actually came to them?) was to throw themselves into being "Europeans".

I was supposed to be ironing tonight - I think I'll be digging out my history books instead, this has been a fascinating discussion to follow.

(For the knowledgeable ones, in case you are knowledgeable on other aspects: can anyone point me towards anything on Japan's involvement in WW1? WW1 is my main area of interest/knowledge and I've never managed to find much on that period specifically)

I’m not an expert on WWI or even any particular area of history. But some notes from a short WWI course I did a while ago: Britain and Japan became allies in 1902. I think that was partly because Britain was feeling rather isolated, and Japan felt they were both island nations, and Britain had an empire. During WWI, British forces were stationed in the eastern Mediterranean, supported by some Japanese destroyers. In the Far East, Australian, New Zealand, and Japanese troops captured German Pacific islands. Then Japan captured a German enclave in China, and then wanted to push further into China. Japan’s “Twenty-One Demands” gives a good indication that Japan wanted to achieve domination in that part of the world: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-One_Demands.